Malaysian airline crash

[martyn20]

Interesting post ? If correct what did American airlines and BA know that made them change route ?

This is just one report that talks about the advice given back in April

http://www.heraldonline.com/2014/07/17/6150757/us-pilots-previously-told-not.html

 

[martyn20]

The aim was to defend Ethnic Russians who wanted to resist the takeover of their country by an illegitimate government installed by force, unlawfully. These people identify more with Russia than they do with Europe, with whom the new regime has close ties. Arguably also, for geo-strategic reasons, the Russians did not want that piece of land to be under the control of what they perceived to be a hostile force (the EU).

Again, I am not defending them doing it, but you don't seem to know much about it if you want to just characterize it as an invasion and land grab.

Also, reading your post, I assume you feel the same way about our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan? I mean, Putin did what Bush/Blair did in terms of invasion of a sovereign country. I assume you would put Blair and Putin together?

I do put Blair and Putin together, Blair and Bush did exactly the same thing in Iraq in 2003, no reason at all to start and no reason to stay. Afghanistan was different there was a reason to start but the objective was achieved within months if not weeks, we should have left at the same time as the Taliban, no reason to stay.
If there was a problem for the Ethnic Russians in Ukraine they should have left and travelled back to Russia, there is no justification for Russia just invading and taking over sovereign territory of a totally different country. As there was no justification for the US/UK forces doing the same in Iraq, of course they never actually declared Iraq as American soil of course.

 

[Triggaaar]

Arguably also, for geo-strategic reasons, the Russians did not want that piece of land to be under the control of what they perceived to be a hostile force (the EU).

If it's not their land, it's not up to them.

Also, reading your post, I assume you feel the same way about our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan? I mean, Putin did what Bush/Blair did in terms of invasion of a sovereign country.

Are we trying to colonise Iraq and Afganistan, and fill them with British and US people?

PS - I'm against Blair and Bush too, but I don't consider this the same.

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

You can see why nothing has been done to repatriate the dead by reading the pages and pages of bollocks from two nsc posters. Politicians are even more anal.

 

[martyn20]

Seeing reports that the Russian Rebels have been contacting relatives of the dead and offering to return the bodies for cash? I can only find links to Russian language sources but I will keep trying.

https://plus.google.com/+SergijMarchenko/posts/KbnVYYQeS9t

 

[dingodan]

If it's not their land, it's not up to them.

I totally agree, I'm not defending it for one second.

But, like most countries, Russia is rational, it does the things it does for rational reasons. Trying to caricature Russia or Putin as monstrous and evil, or for that matter as being any different at all from us, is just not correct.

We are far more like Russia, and our leaders far more like Putin, than people would like to believe.

 

[Triggaaar]

Seeing reports that the Russian Rebels have been contacting relatives of the dead and offering to return the bodies for cash?

Surely that can't be legitimate?

 

[martyn20]

Putin has said on the record that he views the break up of the Soviet Union as the worst event ever in history, he would love to reverse that and acts like it has already happened but it has not, Russia, Ukraine, Georgia and all the former Soviet States are legally separate countries and he has to act like they are.
He can influence his neighbours as other countries around the world do but he cannot just march across borders or arm and train troops from another countries, that is wrong however you try and spin it.

 

[martyn20]

Surely that can't be legitimate?

Too early to confirm it yet but they do have the bodies, there is tape of them moving them and they do have access to wallets and passports. I hope to god it's not true, I only posted it as it was reported by someone I trust, but I do not say it's fact

 

[Creaky]

You do realise they are separate countries and Russia has no right to decide anything within the borders of Ukraine no matter how many Russians live there!

A somewhat simplistic view of the political situation!

The Crimean peninsula was part of Russia until Nikita Khruschev, 'gave' it to the Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1954 - a mainly symbolic 'gift' as being part of the USSR it was still effectively governed by Moscow.

When the Ukraine claimed independence from the USSR in 1991 recognition that Russia had a 'claim' on the Crimea was demonstrated when a special provision was made regarding the port of Sevastopol, where the Russian Black Sea Fleet is based.

It wasn't actually until 1997 when Russia and the Ukraine signed the Peace and Friendship Treaty together with an agreement establishing a long term lease on land, facilities and resources in Crimea and Sevastopol that Russia gave up its formal claim on the Crimean peninsula.

In 2009 the Ukraine government attempted to unilaterally disolve that agreement but drew back when offered discounted gas by Russia and extended the lease on the naval base until 2042 with 5 year options to extend from that date.

In March of this year a referendum was held in the Crimean peninsula asking voters if they wanted to join Russia or remain part of the Ukraine - over 96% voted to join Russia on an 83% turnout.

As someone once said, "eez complicated"!

 

[dingodan]

He can influence his neighbours as other countries around the world do but he cannot just march across borders or arm and train troops from another countries, that is wrong however you try and spin it.

We completely agree about that.

But we do these things just as much as Russia does. I hope you get just as outraged.

 

[martyn20]

A somewhat simplistic view of the political situation!

The Crimean peninsula was part of Russia until Nikita Khruschev, 'gave' it to the Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1954 - a mainly symbolic 'gift' as being part of the USSR it was still effectively governed by Moscow.

When the Ukraine claimed independence from the USSR in 1991 recognition that Russia had a 'claim' on the Crimea was demonstrated when a special provision was made regarding the port of Sevastopol, where the Russian Black Sea Fleet is based.

It wasn't actually until 1997 when Russia and the Ukraine signed the Peace and Friendship Treaty together with an agreement establishing a long term lease on land, facilities and resources in Crimea and Sevastopol that Russia gave up its formal claim on the Crimean peninsula.

In 2009 the Ukraine government attempted to unilaterally disolve that agreement but drew back when offered discounted gas by Russia and extended the lease on the naval base until 2042 with 5 year options to extend from that date.

In March of this year a referendum was held in the Crimean peninsula asking voters if they wanted to join Russia or remain part of the Ukraine - over 96% voted to join Russia on an 83% turnout.

As someone once said, "eez complicated"!

By all international law Crimea was and still is part of Ukraine, Russia gave up it's rights fairly and legally.
That vote means nothing it was illegal and was not sanctioned by Ukraine. Russia cannot arrange an independence vote in another country.

 

[martyn20]

We completely agree about that.

But we do these things just as much as Russia does. I hope you get just as outraged.

But when was the last time the UK invaded another country and declare it as ours? Just totally unacceptable.

 

[vegster]

And what bit of that makes it ok for Putin to take his troops across the border and declare parts of Ukraine now Russian?

I don't know if you read The Times but there was a good piece in there about the Ukraine situation. Putin does not want a country bordering Russia, part of NATO, with a democracy and membership of the EU with a growing economy, otherwise there might be a few more questions asked about the benevolent Mr Putin and his total control of Russia. Hence the return of Stalinist values whereby there is a buffer zone of pro Russian satellite states around Russia. This explains the Crimea and now eastern Ukraine. Ultimately we have been let down by a strong America led by a weak President Obama and a Russian President who is willing to push his luck .

 

[Creaky]

By all international law Crimea was and still is part of Ukraine, Russia gave up it's rights fairly and legally.
That vote means nothing it was illegal and was not sanctioned by Ukraine. Russia cannot arrange an independence vote in another country.

The vote was arranged and run by the local councils of the Crimea and Sevastopol, not Russia - in much the same way that Kosovo held an 'independent' referendum to separate from Serbia - a referendum that was acknowledged by the international community and led to independence.

 

[martyn20]

The vote was arranged and run by the local councils of the Crimea and Sevastopol, not Russia - in much the same way that Kosovo held an 'independent' referendum to separate from Serbia - a referendum that was acknowledged by the international community and led to independence.

It was accepted by the international community because it was accepted by Serbia. Scotland have wanted an Independence vote for many years but could not go ahead until it received the ok from the UK government.
When did the Ukraine government ever agree to a Crimea independence vote?

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Putin is saying this would not have happened if there was peace on 'our land'. Why did he do next to nothing to ensure there was peace?

 

[martyn20]

I don't know if you read The Times but there was a good piece in there about the Ukraine situation. Putin does not want a country bordering Russia, part of NATO, with a democracy and membership of the EU with a growing economy, otherwise there might be a few more questions asked about the benevolent Mr Putin and his total control of Russia. Hence the return of Stalinist values whereby there is a buffer zone of pro Russian satellite states around Russia. This explains the Crimea and now eastern Ukraine. Ultimately we have been let down by a strong America led by a weak President Obama and a Russian President who is willing to push his luck .

I would hate to see what would happen if Obama was not the President, if it was McCain America would be bombing Russia and if it was any other Republican they would be giving Putin everything, apparently they admire him greatly and wish he was the in the White House

 

[Creaky]

It was accepted by the international community because it was accepted by Serbia. Scotland have wanted an Independence vote for many years but could not go ahead until it received the ok from the UK government.
When did the Ukraine government ever agree to a Crimea independence vote?

Wrong - Serbia disputed the right of Kosovo to hold the referendum and even took their dispute with Kosovo to the International Court of Justice where they effectively lost.

 

[martyn20]

Wrong - Serbia disputed the right of Kosovo to hold the referendum and even took their dispute with Kosovo to the International Court of Justice where they effectively lost.

Yes I got that totally wrong, just been looking it up, how about the rest of what I said in the post. I am not sure how good the break up of Yugoslavia is as an example of the best way to do anything.