If and When Wayne Rooney becomes both Englands most capped player and top scorer

[JBizzle]

But this is the point, he doesn't score at the top level. He has one goal from 3 World Cup finals. He is the most red-carded England player though.

Can't argue with that but here's a hypothetical: How many of those tournamnents would we have been at without his 30 competitive goals?

 

[Return of the Rev]

What will your main memory of him be once he's retired from International football. Mine will be primarily disapointment but he can't be that bad if he achieves the above.

I'll personally feel for him as many will just see unfulfilled potential but i don't believe it's his fault he's been surrounded by some very mediocre players ( James Milner 50 caps FFS) over the years unlike Bobby Charlton who had a great side around him.

Also whenever i look at the individual talent in that 2006 World Cup squad Robinson, A Cole, Neville, Terry, Ferdinand, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham, Rooney, Owen, J cole. How the hell did they not do better?

wayne rooney! where did it all go wrong

 

[Easy 10]

Of course it is but what he means is top top level for England ie tournaments .

Charlton = World Cup winner
Linekar = World Cup semi and World Cup golden boot

Just bit annoying he will have the record without even getting near the 2 achievements above .

How much of that is his fault though ? England as a collective have utterly STUNK in the last 3 World Cups, not just Rooney. Lineker did at least play in a pretty decent team in 86 where it all started to click after he formed a potent partnership with Beardsley. And the 1990 squad had some genuine world class about it with Gascoigne in his pomp, an emerging Platt weighing in with some crucial goals, Waddle finally delivering some performances. Lineker benefitted from a confident team playing well (after the first two games at least), but how many goals did he get in Euro 88 and 92, when England stunk again ? Well, that'd be 0.

If Rooney had popped a few goals in against some Algerians, Americans or Trinidads and Tobagans in the last few World Cups, would that really have suddenly elevated his status in the game ? Hardly. The fact is, England as a collective have been embarrassingly poor the last few tournaments, and Rooney can shoulder some of that as he was part of it. But I still don't think it detracts from his overall goalscoring record for England.

Without him, we'd be knackered.

 

[jimbob5]

How much of that is his fault though ? England as a collective have utterly STUNK in the last 3 World Cups, not just Rooney. Lineker did at least play in a pretty decent team in 86 where it all started to click after he formed a potent partnership with Beardsley. And the 1990 squad had some genuine world class about it with Gascoigne in his pomp, an emerging Platt weighing in with some crucial goals, Waddle finally delivering some performances. Lineker benefitted from a confident team playing well (after the first two games at least), but how many goals did he get in Euro 88 and 92, when England stunk again ? Well, that'd be 0.

If Rooney had popped a few goals in against some Algerians, Americans or Trinidads and Tobagans in the last few World Cups, would that really have suddenly elevated his status in the game ? Hardly. The fact is, England as a collective have been embarrassingly poor the last few tournaments, and Rooney can shoulder some of that as he was part of it. But I still don't think it detracts from his overall goalscoring record for England.

Without him, we'd be knackered.

Lineker was mid 20s when he got in the England team and pretty much stopped playing due to a foot problem at 30. So many less games. The 86 'success' was due to fate really with Wilkins and Robson being absent and Beardsley forming a partnership with Lineker. The team had nowhere near as much potential as the team 2001 to 2006 inc. Gascoigne only just made the 1990 squad and was arguably the player of the tournament. A year later he had the injury. Unfortunately Lineker and Gascoigne were only together for England on top form for a year or so. Rooney has achieved the stats obviously by being good but having been pretty much injury free and in the mix for over 10 years. His best international tournament by far was 10 years ago when he was 18. Surely that has to go down as disappointing, even if he was as funny as Peter Cook, nice as Michael Palin, generous as St Francis and intelligent as Brian Cox.

 

[Easy 10]

Lineker was mid 20s when he got in the England team and pretty much stopped playing due to a foot problem at 30. So many less games. The 86 'success' was due to fate really with Wilkins and Robson being absent and Beardsley forming a partnership with Lineker. The team had nowhere near as much potential as the team 2001 to 2006 inc. Gascoigne only just made the 1990 squad and was arguably the player of the tournament. A year later he had the injury. Unfortunately Lineker and Gascoigne were only together for England on top form for a year or so. Rooney has achieved the stats obviously by being good but having been pretty much injury free and in the mix for over 10 years. His best international tournament by far was 10 years ago when he was 18. Surely that has to go down as disappointing, even if he was as funny as Peter Cook, nice as Michael Palin, generous as St Francis and intelligent as Brian Cox.

Lineker has not played "many less games" in WCF's than Rooney though, in fact he played more. He played 11 in total (5 in 1986 and 6 in 1990). Rooney played 3 in 2006, 4 in 2010 and 3 in 2014, so 10 in all. As for being "injury free" - he went to the 2006 tournament crocked, missing the first two group games, so he's hardly been without injury problems.

I'm not defending Rooney's performances in the World Cup, there's absolutely no disputing he's been piss-poor. But then so were England as a whole. Lineker benefitted from a couple of decent World Cup campaigns as the team grew into those two tournaments which he was involved in (helped of course by his goals). Thats never happened in the Rooney era, as our "golden generation" of superstars utterly failed to perform as a collective and were dross throughout.

Personally I think he deserves great credit for his International goalscoring record, but it seems some peoples natural disdain for him as a person gets in the way of acknowledging it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

43 International goals and 30-odd Champions League goals isn't scoring at the top level ?

top level but not the highest level. There are lot of mismatches and dead-rubbers in the CL and international qualifying. By highest I mean finals of international tournaments and semis and finals of European club tournaments. When we talk of the true greats of the game they have all scored memorable goals and/or made telling contributions to important matches. I'm happy to be corrected, can you provide some figures for his goals fitting my criteria?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

How much of that is his fault though ? England as a collective have utterly STUNK in the last 3 World Cups.

It might not be his fault but the fact of the matter is he has not delivered whether it is his fault or not. You cannot give somebody world class status on sympathy or what-might-have-been.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Of course it is but what he means is top top level for England ie tournaments .

Charlton = World Cup winner
Linekar = World Cup semi and World Cup golden boot

Just bit annoying he will have the record without even getting near the 2 achievements above .

This.

 

[Easy 10]

top level but not the highest level. There are lot of mismatches and dead-rubbers in the CL and international qualifying. By highest I mean finals of international tournaments and semis and finals of European club tournaments. When we talk of the true greats of the game they have all scored memorable goals and/or made telling contributions to important matches. I'm happy to be corrected, can you provide some figures for his goals fitting my criteria?

Well, he scored a fine equaliser in the Champions League Final against the best team on the planet at the time, but as Man U went on to lose, its largely forgotten. And England simply have not been good enough during his era to get deep enough into a tournament to give him a platform for a memorable goal. He's part of that malaise of course, but its hardly entirely his fault.

His England goalscoring record of 43 in 99 (0.43) is superb, considering its been achieved in such a bang average side over the years. Linekers record of 48 in 80 (0.6) is phenomenal. Everyone loves (loved) Lineker, whereas Rooney polarises opinion.

Rooney may never be considered a true great, but his goalscoring record is right up there with some.

 

[jimbob5]

Lineker has not played "many less games" in WCF's than Rooney though, in fact he played more. He played 11 in total (5 in 1986 and 6 in 1990). Rooney played 3 in 2006, 4 in 2010 and 3 in 2014, so 10 in all. As for being "injury free" - he went to the 2006 tournament crocked, missing the first two group games, so he's hardly been without injury problems.

I'm not defending Rooney's performances in the World Cup, there's absolutely no disputing he's been piss-poor. But then so were England as a whole. Lineker benefitted from a couple of decent World Cup campaigns as the team grew into those two tournaments which he was involved in (helped of course by his goals). Thats never happened in the Rooney era, as our "golden generation" of superstars utterly failed to perform as a collective and were dross throughout.

Personally I think he deserves great credit for his International goalscoring record, but it seems some peoples natural disdain for him as a person gets in the way of acknowledging it.

He's played about 20 more games for England but scored less goals than Lineker. Taking into account qualification rounds Rooney played in 6 and Lineker 4. Rooney had better players around him. The golden generation. Rooney arguably got us knocked out in 2006 by being sent off. To be generous he's an 8 out of 10 but could have been a perfect 10.

 

[Easy 10]

It might not be his fault but the fact of the matter is he has not delivered whether it is his fault or not. You cannot give somebody world class status on sympathy or what-might-have-been.

I've never said he's world class.

 

[Easy 10]

He's played about 20 more games for England but scored less goals than Lineker. Taking into account qualification rounds Rooney played in 6 and Lineker 4. Rooney had better players around him. The golden generation. Rooney arguably got us knocked out in 2006 by being sent off. To be generous he's an 8 out of 10 but could have been a perfect 10.

Whether Rooney had better players around him is a moot point and highly debatable. He had more over-hyped players for sure, due to the era in which he has played his career. We could probably pick through the England teams of their respective eras and pick some right old duffers they had as team-mates from both, but I doubt we'd reach much of a conclusion.

My point is, whether Rooney is ever considered an England great or not, his goalscoring record is right up there, and worthy of acknowleding as more than decent IMO. When you see people saying "can't wait to see thew fat potatohead retire", or words to that effect, I just think thats a bit ridiculous. England are not blessed with a great deal of talent right now, so we could ill afford to lose a player of Rooney's calibre, whether you like him as a bloke or not.

 

[jimbob5]

Whether Rooney had better players around him is a moot point and highly debatable. He had more over-hyped players for sure, due to the era in which he has played his career. We could probably pick through the England teams of their respective eras and pick some right old duffers they had as team-mates from both, but I doubt we'd reach much of a conclusion.

My point is, whether Rooney is ever considered an England great or not, his goalscoring record is right up there, and worthy of acknowleding as more than decent IMO. When you see people saying "can't wait to see thew fat potatohead retire", or words to that effect, I just think thats a bit ridiculous. England are not blessed with a great deal of talent right now, so we could ill afford to lose a player of Rooney's calibre, whether you like him as a bloke or not.

His personality has not helped make people regard him as a great but I already covered that. With those players and in those 6 or so competitions one could have realistically have expected them to at least reach a couple of semi finals. Yes, it could have been worse but should have been better. In the 5 finals Rooney played in he was great in the first but a massive disappointment in the others, maybe not so much in 2014 when expectations were lower. People are entitled to say he was not as good as he could have been and one can't expect subtlety from football fans.

 

[spring hall convert]

You might not like Rooney as a person or a player, but to deride his goalscoring record at the top level is churlish and ridiculous.

His goalscoring record at the top level is awful.

Pretty good in qualifiers though.

 

[Marshy]

His goalscoring record at the top level is awful.

Pretty good in qualifiers though.

Largely because he has been unfit at the major events in my opinion.

 

[spring hall convert]

Largely because he has been unfit at the major events in my opinion.

Interesting viewpoint.

Clearly there has been something going on, as his performance in qualifiers has generally been good. Even against poor sides at tournaments he's been shite.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Was it a great side though, or a great team? Only Bobby Charlton won European Cup honours. Nobby Stiles, Roger Hunt, Alan Ball and Jack Charlton were the only ones to win league titles other than Bobby. Not sure you could say many of them were great, but they came together and performed better than the sum of their parts as a team.

The 1966 and 1970 England team contained three world class players. Gordon Banks, Bobby Moore and Bobby Charlton. When you consider the greatest England players of all time, these three would be in the top five. Thats a good start when the spine of your team are all world class. Of the eight others in 1966, Ray Wilson was a high class left back and George Cohen was a solid workmanlike right back. No frills, just got the job done. Jack Charlton and Nobby Stiles were journeyman pro's and dependable. Jack would win most in the air ( he didn't need to worry about distribution...just give it to Moore ) and Nobby could carry out man-marking duties to inch perfect precision ( just as Ramsey wanted ) Martin Peters and Alan Ball were the babies of the team but they had years ahead of them and were both high class players. Upfront you could perm two from three. Jimmy Greaves, most natural goalscorer England have ever had. Geoff Hurst, strong and mobile target man and good finisher. Roger Hunt, tireless runner and good converter ( over 40 goals in one season for Liverpool.
All in all a pretty good mix who would run through brick walls for Alf Ramsey. A brave and clever manager who wasn't afraid to experiment during a tournament and had absolute conviction in his players and would always back them in public. Watch film of this side. Watch how comfortable they are on the ball. Watch their first touch. See their belief.
We haven't had players as good as Banks, Moore and Charlton since. Gazza was nearly in this elite company and just short of the highest class were Shilton, Robson, Lineker and Shearer. Then you start talking about the rest, of whom Rooney is one.
Has he been a model pro. Has he looked after himself. Has he worked hard enough on his game. Could he have produced more at major tournaments. Is there an element missing in his make-up. Does he lose confidence too easily, when his first touch deserts him and he looks like a park player. Should he have made more of his natural ability or has he relied too much on that and not honed his skills more.
When he retires as England's record goalscorer and capped player, I fear these questions will always be asked. The hopes of a nation have too often been heaped on his shoulders and he hasn't delivered the glory that was demanded. Thats not his fault. He didn't have enough good players around him for support and he didn't enjoy the calibre of International manager that is needed to advance far in tournaments. He is short of the highest class but is still a very good player and at club level he has regularly had high class players around him to take the pressure. Thats where he is most comfortable, not in an England shirt, where he struggles when the pressure is really on.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I've never said he's world class.

Fair point. But my sentiment still holds ie you cannot say someone is good/great etc on what might have been.

 

[Easy 10]

Fair point. But my sentiment still holds ie you cannot say someone is good/great etc on what might have been.

Well aside from what might have been, I think his goalscoring record puts him north of "good" but a bit south of "great".

 

[SK1NT]

The likes of Greaves and Charlton filled their boots vs your Luxembourgs as well you know.

Lineker got a hattrick in the 8-0 Turkey-shoot when they were shite, as well as many other minnows. They weren't ALL against Germany and Argentina.

You might not like Rooney as a person or a player, but to deride his goalscoring record at the top level is churlish and ridiculous.

I use to think you were quire knowledgeable.....

Linekers record:



Scored

1 26 March 1985 Wembley Stadium Republic of Ireland 2–1 Friendly 1
2, 3 16 June 1985 Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum United States 5–0 Friendly 2
4, 5, 6 16 October 1985 Wembley Stadium Turkey 5–0 1986 World Cup qualifier 3
7, 8, 9 11 June 1986 Estadio Tecnológico, Monterrey Poland 3–0 1986 World Cup 3
10, 11 18 June 1986 Estadio Azteca, Mexico City Paraguay 3–0 1986 World Cup 2
12 22 June 1986 Estadio Azteca, Mexico City Argentina 1–2 1986 World Cup 1
13, 14 15 October 1986 Wembley Stadium Northern Ireland 3–0 Euro 1988 qualifier 2
15, 16, 17, 18 18 February 1987 Santiago Bernabéu, Madrid Spain 4–2 Friendly 4
19 19 May 1987 Wembley Stadium Brazil 1–1 Friendly (Rous Cup) 1
20 9 September 1987 Rheinstadion, Düsseldorf West Germany 1–3 Friendly 1
21, 22, 23 14 October 1987 Wembley Stadium Turkey 8–0 Euro 1988 qualifier 3
24 24 May 1988 Wembley Stadium Colombia 1–1 Friendly (Rous Cup) 1
25 23 March 1988 Wembley Stadium Netherlands 2–2 Friendly 1
26 28 May 1988 Stade Olympique de la Pontaise, Lausanne Switzerland 1–0 Friendly 1
27 26 April 1989 Wembley Stadium Albania 5–0 1990 World Cup qualifier 1
28 3 June 1989 Wembley Stadium Poland 3–0 1990 World Cup qualifier 1
29 7 July 1989 Parken Stadium, Copenhagen Denmark 1–1 Friendly 1
30 28 March 1990 Wembley Stadium Brazil 1–0 Friendly 1
31 15 May 1990 Wembley Stadium Denmark 1–0 Friendly 1
32 11 June 1990 Stadio Sant'Elia, Cagliari Republic of Ireland 1–1 1990 World Cup 1
33, 34 1 July 1990 Stadio San Paolo, Naples Cameroon 3–2 1990 World Cup 2
35 4 July 1990 Stadio delle Alpi, Turin West Germany 1 – 1p 1990 World Cup 1
36 22 September 1990 Wembley Stadium Hungary 1–0 Friendly 1
37 17 October 1990 Wembley Stadium Poland 2–0 Euro 1992 qualifier 1
38, 39 6 February 1991 Wembley Stadium Cameroon 2–0 Friendly 2
40 26 July 1991 Wembley Stadium Argentina 2–2 Friendly (England Challenge Cup) 1
41 3 June 1991 Mt Smart Stadium, Auckland New Zealand 1–0 Friendly 1
42, 43, 44, 45 12 June 1991 Stadium Merdeka, Kuala Lumpur Malaysia 4–2 Friendly 4
46 13 November 1991 Stadion Miejski, Poznań Poland 1–1 Euro 1992 qualifier 1
47 19 February 1992 Wembley Stadium France 2–0 Friendly 1
48 29 April 1992 Luzhniki Stadium, Moscow CIS 2–2 Friendly 1

Rooneys

1 6 September 2003 Gradski Stadium, Skopje, Republic of Macedonia 6 Macedonia 1–1 2–1 UEFA Euro 2004 qualifying
2 10 September 2003 Old Trafford, Manchester, England 7 Liechtenstein 2–0 2–0 UEFA Euro 2004 qualifying
3 16 November 2003 Old Trafford, Manchester, England 9 Denmark 1–0 2–3 Friendly
4 5 June 2004 City of Manchester Stadium, Manchester, England 13 Iceland 2–0 6–1 Friendly
5 5 June 2004 City of Manchester Stadium, Manchester, England 13 Iceland 3–0 6–1 Friendly
6 17 June 2004 Estádio Cidade de Coimbra, Coimbra, Portugal 15 Switzerland 1–0 3–0 UEFA Euro 2004
7 17 June 2004 Estádio Cidade de Coimbra, Coimbra, Portugal 15 Switzerland 2–0 3–0 UEFA Euro 2004
8 21 June 2004 Estádio da Luz, Lisbon, Portugal 16 Croatia 1–2 2–4 UEFA Euro 2004
9 21 June 2004 Estádio da Luz, Lisbon, Portugal 16 Croatia 1–3 2–4 UEFA Euro 2004
10 17 August 2005 Parken Stadion, Copenhagen, Denmark 24 Denmark 3–1 4–1 Friendly
11 12 November 2005 Stade de Genève, Geneva, Switzerland 28 Argentina 1–1 3–2 Friendly
12 15 November 2006 Amsterdam ArenA, Amsterdam, Netherlands 36 Netherlands 0–1 1–1 Friendly
13 13 October 2007 Wembley Stadium, London, England 39 Estonia 2–0 3–0 UEFA Euro 2008 qualification
14 17 October 2007 Luzhniki Stadium, Moscow, Russia 40 Russia 0–1 2–1 UEFA Euro 2008 qualification
15 10 September 2008 Maksimir Stadium, Zagreb, Croatia 46 Croatia 0–3 1–4 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
16 12 October 2008 Wembley Stadium, London, England 47 Kazakhstan 3–1 5–1 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
17 12 October 2008 Wembley Stadium, London, England 47 Kazakhstan 4–1 5–1 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
18 15 October 2008 Dinamo Stadium, Minsk, Belarus 48 Belarus 1–2 1–3 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
19 15 October 2008 Dinamo Stadium, Minsk, Belarus 48 Belarus 1–3 1–3 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
20 28 March 2009 Wembley Stadium, London, England 49 Slovakia 2–0 4–0 Friendly
21 28 March 2009 Wembley Stadium, London, England 49 Slovakia 4–0 4–0 Friendly
22 6 June 2009 Almaty Central Stadium, Almaty, Kazakhstan 51 Kazakhstan 0–3 0–4 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
23 10 June 2009 Wembley Stadium, London, England 52 Andorra 1–0 6–0 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
24 10 June 2009 Wembley Stadium, London, England 52 Andorra 3–0 6–0 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
25 9 September 2009 Wembley Stadium, London, England 55 Croatia 5–1 5–1 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification
26 7 September 2010 St. Jakob-Park, Basel, Switzerland 67 Switzerland 0–1 1–3 UEFA Euro 2012 qualifying
27 2 September 2011 Vasil Levski National Stadium, Sofia, Bulgaria 71 Bulgaria 0–2 0–3 UEFA Euro 2012 qualifying
28 2 September 2011 Vasil Levski National Stadium, Sofia, Bulgaria 71 Bulgaria 0–3 0–3 UEFA Euro 2012 qualifying
29 19 June 2012 Donbass Arena, Donetsk, Ukraine 75 Ukraine 0–1 0–1 UEFA Euro 2012
30 12 October 2012 Wembley Stadium, London, England 77 San Marino 1–0 5–0 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification
31 12 October 2012 Wembley Stadium, London, England 77 San Marino 3–0 5–0 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification
32 17 October 2012 National Stadium, Warsaw, Poland 78 Poland 1–0 1–1 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification
33 6 February 2013 Wembley Stadium, London, England 79 Brazil 1–0 2–1 Friendly
34 22 March 2013 Serravalle Stadium, San Marino 80 San Marino 6–0 8–0 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification
35 26 March 2013 Podgorica City Stadium, Montenegro 81 Montenegro 1–0 1–1 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification
36 2 June 2013 Estádio do Maracanã, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 83 Brazil 2–1 2–2 Friendly
37 11 October 2013 Wembley Stadium, London, England 85 Montenegro 1–0 4–1 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification
38 15 October 2013 Wembley Stadium, London, England 86 Poland 1–0 2–0 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification
39 4 June 2014 Sun Life Stadium, Miami, USA 91 Ecuador 1–1 2–2 Friendly
40 19 June 2014 Arena Corinthians, São Paulo, Brazil 94 Uruguay 1–1 1–2 2014 FIFA World Cup
41 3 September 2014 Wembley Stadium, London, England 96 Norway 1–0 1–0 Friendly
42 9 October 2014 Wembley Stadium, London, England 98 San Marino 2–0 5–0 UEFA Euro 2016 qualifying
43 12 October 2014 A. Le Coq Arena, Tallinn, Estonia 99 Estonia 1–0 1–0 UEFA Euro 2016 qualifying



Almost half of Rooneys goals are made up of games against teams not even in the top 50... e.g. San Marino 4 Kazakhstan 3. He has only scored twice against big teams and has scored once in over a decade in a big tournament. Lineker consistently scored in the major tournaments and against top top teams

The stats do the talking... I don't have a clue where your abuse came from... ... Rooneys international goalscoring record IS laughable...

PS I a cannot be arsed to google Charlton and greavies stats