Hosham UKIP public meeting tonight in Horsham at 19:30

[cunning fergus]

Your question is put simply, so I will TRY to answer it simply.
Uk pays roughly £12bn per year to the EU and recieves money from the EU as around 110bn is spent inside the EU, with the UK making a net loss on the 12bn. I have no idea how much of that 12 is loss. I would estimate that the uk recieves around 2-4bn.
The current figures on direct trade with EU countries is 78bn per year to our GDP. So being an EU member produces around 70bn per year. If we left the EU, you can only estimate how much of that 70bn you would lose.
You also have to factor in the huge expense of leaving the EU, the rough economic conditions of an exit and the fall out after. It would be like flicking a switch to start an over night crash.
Farage is willing to risk those things because he worries about Bulgarians? I don't believe even he is that stupid. I have to question his motives and where ukip are concerned those motives seem to come from a nasty place.

Out of interest what price do you put on the loss of sovereignty and democracy?

This current spat on border control (regardless of whether you are for or against) between the democratically elected UK Govt and unelected and unaccountable technocrats is representative of this loss.

This loss has not been put to the people..........and you can add up all the profit that the a EU generates for capitalists and Tories, it isn't worth a penny against the loss of our ability to govern ourselves.

 

[El Presidente]

Out of interest what price do you put on the loss of sovereignty and democracy?

14 pounds 3 shillings and tuppence

 

[cunning fergus]

14 pounds 3 shillings and tuppence

Nope, you're not even close.

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1048767

Previously socialist and anti EU campaigner Neil Kinnock and his missus are north of 600k in public pensions with the EU paying them circa 250k, not forgetting their son previously employed in the a EU but now getting a nice easy Labour seat in Wales.

So all in all, for the Kinnocks and other pro EU Tory politicians I guess sovereignty is worth a cushy EU salary and pension, say 1m?

No austerity or cost of living crisis for them eh?

 

[El Presidente]

Nope, you're not even close.

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1048767

Previously socialist and anti EU campaigner Neil Kinnock and his missus are north of 600k in public pensions with the EU paying them circa 250k, not forgetting their son previously employed in the a EU but now getting a nice easy Labour seat in Wales.

So all in all, for the Kinnocks and other pro EU Tory politicians I guess sovereignty is worth a cushy EU salary and pension, say 1m?

No austerity or cost of living crisis for them eh?

Agreed.

That Nigel Farage bloke does well out of it too.

 

[cunning fergus]

Agreed.

That Nigel Farage bloke does well out of it too.

Yep, as do all the other elected and unelected EU representatives..........nevertheless he is not standing to continue to take the money.

It's hardly a political dynamic we are unfamiliar with in the UK is it........

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/apr/08/sinn-fein-expenses-martin-mcguinness

 

[El Presidente]

Yep, as do all the other elected and unelected EU representatives..........nevertheless he is not standing to continue to take the money.

It's hardly a political dynamic we are unfamiliar with in the UK is it........

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/apr/08/sinn-fein-expenses-martin-mcguinness

I always get the feeling CF that an old Stalinist such as yourself still wears a beret and a Che T Shirt.

Agree entirely about that democratically elected scamp McGuinness.

In the meantime, whilst we are arguing and stroking our chins, the scandal of PFI and government contracts goes undiscussed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28464002

 

[brighton fella]

Your question is put simply, so I will TRY to answer it simply.
Uk pays roughly £12bn per year to the EU and recieves money from the EU as around 110bn is spent inside the EU, with the UK making a net loss on the 12bn. I have no idea how much of that 12 is loss. I would estimate that the uk recieves around 2-4bn.
The current figures on direct trade with EU countries is 78bn per year to our GDP. So being an EU member produces around 70bn per year. If we left the EU, you can only estimate how much of that 70bn you would lose.
You also have to factor in the huge expense of leaving the EU, the rough economic conditions of an exit and the fall out after. It would be like flicking a switch to start an over night crash.
Farage is willing to risk those things because he worries about Bulgarians? I don't believe even he is that stupid. I have to question his motives and where ukip are concerned those motives seem to come from a nasty place.

tell me what makes Britain unable of striking up its very own trade deals should we exit the EU ?
& what would be stopping us from striking up further deals with the rest of the world ?
are we that incapable of negotiating our own tariff charges ?
are we that incapable that we've lost the complete ability to trade for ourselves when we were running along just fine before the EU existed. if the worlds a different place right now what are we doing stuck in a Europe that's declining & riddled with debt?
finally you estimate we only make a pony 2-4bn when it restricts us from doing further trade elsewhere. sounds a lot of dosh but when you weigh up the pro's and con's is it worth it.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Dual post. Sorry ukips.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Out of interest what price do you put on the loss of sovereignty and democracy?

This current spat on border control (regardless of whether you are for or against) between the democratically elected UK Govt and unelected and unaccountable technocrats is representative of this loss.

This loss has not been put to the people..........and you can add up all the profit that the a EU generates for capitalists and Tories, it isn't worth a penny against the loss of our ability to govern ourselves.

Hold on, the EU money is for the Tories you say? The very Tories that want the EU's employment law red tape cut? So they can let big businesses loose to higher and fire at will and push down wages and employee rights?
The same Tories and toffs or whichever uk Government are the very same that would be running EVERYTHING if we pull out of the EU and yet you seem to talk of sovereignty as if some mythical wonderful utopia. You don't trust Cameron to deliver a referendum? But you want our government to be free to make whatever laws?
Which is it? You trust the uk government to govern or you don't?
EU needs reform, yes. I think even the most pro EU person would admit. But to simply take a stance of wanting to be out of the EU and not really have any other ideas, policies or exit strategy.
Ukip are great at throwing up questions but have no answers and when a difficult question comes Farage's way, his first answer is 'why don't you ask the other parties that? You're only asking because we are ukip.". No we are asking because ukip are a Westminster party now, only worse than the others IMO.

 

[Captain Sensible]

tell me what makes Britain unable of striking up its very own trade deals should we exit the EU ?
& what would be stopping us from striking up further deals with the rest of the world ?
are we that incapable of negotiating our own tariff charges ?
are we that incapable that we've lost the complete ability to trade for ourselves when we were running along just fine before the EU existed. if the worlds a different place right now what are we doing stuck in a Europe that's declining & riddled with debt?
finally you estimate we only make a pony 2-4bn when it restricts us from doing further trade elsewhere. sounds a lot of dosh but when you weigh up the pro's and con's is it worth it.

Ok so we leave the EU..Then what?
Well after the unstable inevitable economic hardships that come with that we then have to negotiate with each EU nation an improved deal for the Uk in regard to trade. That is done how exactly?

Think of this, whilst in the EU we have the possibility of the mass of free trade from the continent. Limited only by the amount we can export, trade, sell financial markets to etc. but by leaving you cannot make more money from the EU nations than currently but have the possibility to make less.

If you think I'm wrong. Then tell me how the uk gets a better deal with Europe to generate more GDP? How we can avoid an economic downturn and turbulence after an exit? and how the uk can better its social and economic standing after an EU exit?

 

[brighton fella]

Hold on, the EU money is for the Tories you say? The very Tories that want the EU's employment law red tape cut? So they can let big businesses loose to higher and fire at will and push down wages and employee rights?
The same Tories and toffs or whichever uk Government are the very same that would be running EVERYTHING if we pull out of the EU and yet you seem to talk of sovereignty as if some mythical wonderful utopia. You don't trust Cameron to deliver a referendum? But you want our government to be free to make whatever laws?
Which is it? You trust the uk government to govern or you don't?
EU needs reform, yes. I think even the most pro EU person would admit. But to simply take a stance of wanting to be out of the EU and not really have any other ideas, policies or exit strategy.
Ukip are great at throwing up questions but have no answers and when a difficult question comes Farage's way, his first answer is 'why don't you ask the other parties that? You're only asking because we are ukip.". No we are asking because ukip are a Westminster party now, only worse than the others IMO.

the fact is we all know the EU will not budge on reform.
as much as I don't trust Cameron to come up with what he had already promised I'd rather put my trust in him than any EU commissioner.
I'd much rather have a brit running my affairs than some foreign bureaucrat who hasn't got Britain's best interests at heart.
solution.. pray we get given a fair referendum and then pray we opt out.

 

[brighton fella]

Ok so we leave the EU..Then what?
Well after the unstable inevitable economic hardships that come with that we then have to negotiate with each EU nation an improved deal for the Uk in regard to trade. That is done how exactly?

Think of this, whilst in the EU we have the possibility of the mass of free trade from the continent. Limited only by the amount we can export, trade, sell financial markets to etc. but by leaving you cannot make more money from the EU nations than currently but have the possibility to make less.

If you think I'm wrong. Then tell me how the uk gets a better deal with Europe to generate more GDP? How we can avoid an economic downturn and turbulence after an exit? and how the uk can better its social and economic standing after an EU exit?

truth is no one really knows the outcome unless we give it a go,
myself.. I am willing to give it a gamble considering what I've learnt about juncker and the rest of his cronies.
guess it all comes down to faith and I have that faith that Britain can succeed, not saying it will be easy and sure it will be a struggle at first, but my faith say's we shall overcome that struggle and go on to prosper.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Well after the unstable inevitable economic hardships that come with that we then have to negotiate with each EU nation an improved deal for the Uk in regard to trade. That is done how exactly?

out of interest, why would we have to negotiate with each EU nation ? Why wouldn't we just negotiate with the EU that represents those remaining members just as the US is currently doing ?

 

[cunning fergus]

I always get the feeling CF that an old Stalinist such as yourself still wears a beret and a Che T Shirt.

Agree entirely about that democratically elected scamp McGuinness.

In the meantime, whilst we are arguing and stroking our chins, the scandal of PFI and government contracts goes undiscussed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28464002

Another damning case of our politicians and likely very well rewarded mandarins playing fast and loose with taxpayers money, and at a time when other public sector workers lower down the food chain are being denied wage increases. I don't think this will change till those in charge put their own benefits at risk, I wonder if this would happen so often if failure resulted in the loss of a percentage of politicians/mandarins public pensions.

That said, this incompetence is about the loss of taxpayer money, as oppose to the loss of taxpayers per se.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/22/uk-government-foreign-criminals-offenders

Not that £1bn of taxpayers money to manage the thousands of foreign criminals in the criminal justice system is irrelevant, especially now we have between 6-8 prisons dedicated to dealing with foreign criminals.

What price would you put on the death of a British taxpayer at the hands of these hard working migrants? It's clear that Juncker (unelected and unaccountable to the British people) is able to deny the democratically elected British Prime Minister the ability to act on the concerns of the British electorate.

Puts the PFI issue in focus doesn't it?

 

[El Presidente]

Another damning case of our politicians and likely very well rewarded mandarins playing fast and loose with taxpayers money, and at a time when other public sector workers lower down the food chain are being denied wage increases. I don't think this will change till those in charge put their own benefits at risk, I wonder if this would happen so often if failure resulted in the loss of a percentage of politicians/mandarins public pensions.

That said, this incompetence is about the loss of taxpayer money, as oppose to the loss of taxpayers per se.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/22/uk-government-foreign-criminals-offenders

Not that £1bn of taxpayers money to manage the thousands of foreign criminals in the criminal justice system is irrelevant, especially now we have between 6-8 prisons dedicated to dealing with foreign criminals.

What price would you put on the death of a British taxpayer at the hands of these hard working migrants? It's clear that Juncker (unelected and unaccountable to the British people) is able to deny the democratically elected British Prime Minister the ability to act on the concerns of the British electorate.

Puts the PFI issue in focus doesn't it?

Is your name Dave Spart?

 

[cunning fergus]

Hold on, the EU money is for the Tories you say? The very Tories that want the EU's employment law red tape cut? So they can let big businesses loose to higher and fire at will and push down wages and employee rights?
The same Tories and toffs or whichever uk Government are the very same that would be running EVERYTHING if we pull out of the EU and yet you seem to talk of sovereignty as if some mythical wonderful utopia. You don't trust Cameron to deliver a referendum? But you want our government to be free to make whatever laws?
Which is it? You trust the uk government to govern or you don't?
EU needs reform, yes. I think even the most pro EU person would admit. But to simply take a stance of wanting to be out of the EU and not really have any other ideas, policies or exit strategy.
Ukip are great at throwing up questions but have no answers and when a difficult question comes Farage's way, his first answer is 'why don't you ask the other parties that? You're only asking because we are ukip.". No we are asking because ukip are a Westminster party now, only worse than the others IMO.

It's enlightening that you recognise EU employment law is just red tape, surely this should be cut? As for working conditions and pay this has been on the slide for years, the UK is now in bottom 4 of the EU pay league. That is why the Tories and the Toffs are keen for the UK to continue in the EU.

This will not change unless sensible controls can be implemented to control the labour market, it is an irony that this is a policy of UKIP because it was old Labour (pre Blair) that had the same outlook.

As I indicated before, this ability to control our labour market has been lost, as has the ability of our democratically elected Govt to do anything about it. Notwithstanding the fact that this has occurred without of the British electorate, who do you think wins in this situation?

Is it Big business (and their political sponsors) making profits on the back of workers being paid less, or the endless supply of workers competing for UK jobs in a rush to the bottom in pay and conditions?

It's not just here is though, this dynamic exists in many other parts of the EU whose economies have collapsed, and now France is on the brink of having to address its debt..........good luck with that.

 

[cunning fergus]

Is your name Dave Spart?

Hardly, I can't afford Private eye..........

 

[El Presidente]

Hardly, I can't afford Private eye..........

I'll get you a subscription for Christmas x

 

[Captain Sensible]

out of interest, why would we have to negotiate with each EU nation ? Why wouldn't we just negotiate with the EU that represents those remaining members just as the US is currently doing ?

Then you could end up making concessions to the EU in exchange for its huge trade base. The question was presented as, how to be better off making more money from the EU nations, outside the EU rather than within it? Ask Switzerland, they've paid a heavy price for their EU concessions.
No one has explained how we are better off outside apart from banging on about making our own laws, by a government no one even trusts anyway. Losing trade for the EU, is it a price worth paying for that? Not IMO.

 

[Captain Sensible]

It's enlightening that you recognise EU employment law is just red tape, surely this should be cut? As for working conditions and pay this has been on the slide for years, the UK is now in bottom 4 of the EU pay league. That is why the Tories and the Toffs are keen for the UK to continue in the EU.

This will not change unless sensible controls can be implemented to control the labour market, it is an irony that this is a policy of UKIP because it was old Labour (pre Blair) that had the same outlook.

As I indicated before, this ability to control our labour market has been lost, as has the ability of our democratically elected Govt to do anything about it. Notwithstanding the fact that this has occurred without of the British electorate, who do you think wins in this situation?

Is it Big business (and their political sponsors) making profits on the back of workers being paid less, or the endless supply of workers competing for UK jobs in a rush to the bottom in pay and conditions?

It's not just here is though, this dynamic exists in many other parts of the EU whose economies have collapsed, and now France is on the brink of having to address its debt..........good luck with that.

Twist twist spin spin. Lol! You're quick to pick on one element of a post and highlight it and twist it to your own agenda.
Do I really need to explain my reference to red tape? I'm sure you know how I referred to it.

The fact is that it's UKplc that are pushing down wages and working conditions. The EU safeguards IMO are not enough but at least they are something.