Hillsborough verdict: Fans unlawfully killed

[glasfryn]

hello dave
THEY HAVE FOUND IT
so you stop the sympathetical nodding
you can get back to being the uncaring bar steward you really are.
by the way you really are looking red and overweight are you feeling well
bye dave
finding cats in the dark is not easy you have to crawl around while others think you are wasting your time, and some of them strike back, yours will in your worst nightmares

 

[Leekbrookgull]

In what way was that a clever post

Simply you have highlighted that things have not really changed on match days. You know as well as me that match day violence is there if you want it,it just won't be in EPL,a lower league club without doubt. Yet we are 'Sold' the beautiful game.

 

[clapham_gull]

Way to many people in there that shouldn't have been in there....must have been loads of ticketless fans that were let in as well.
Anyone can see it was ridiculously over populated,but the important thing is justice has prevailed for the family as wether it was over populated or not the police let them in.

That old chestnut. Disproved years ago in the Taylor interim report.

They first checked the turnstiles to count the number going in. When they found one was defective the Health and Safety Executive "painstakingly" watched all the CTV from old side the ground and counted the fans going in.

The stand was near capacity but not full - the fans were simply directed to the wrong part.

Irrespective of whether some fans had tickets or not - it had no effect on what happened.

The "evidence" that existed was Liverpool fans had turned up at games before ticketless (as did all fans) and someone overheard a conversation in a pub.

Taylor on the evidence of others dismissed it. It was simply one of those lies that were bandied about that got published, talked about and became an urban myth.

Not one of the people I talked to about it (even today) who thought the above was true have read the report.

Like many others you were lied to and Bob Holness didn't play the saxophone on Gerry Rafferty's Baker Street either.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12120809

 

[portlock seagull]

That old chestnut. Disproved years ago in the Taylor interim report.

They first checked the turnstiles to count the number going in. When they found one was defective the Health and Safety Executive "painstakingly" watched all the CTV from old side the ground and counted the fans going in.

The stand was near capacity but not full - the fans were simply directed to the wrong part.

Irrespective of whether some fans had tickets or not - it had no effect on what happened.

The "evidence" that existed was Liverpool fans had turned up at games before ticketless (as did all fans) and someone overheard a conversation in a pub.

Taylor on the evidence of others dismissed it. It was simply one of those lies that were bandied about that got published, talked about and became an urban myth.

Not one of the people I talked to about it (even today) who thought the above was true have read the report.

You were lied to and swallowed it and Bob Holness didn't play the saxophone on Gerry Rafferty's Baker Street either.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12120809

This. And it makes me really angry though that those of us who were lied to (everyone basically in the beginning), despite fairly early on being directed towards the truth (Taylor report) and then subsequently mounting evidence (the inquests) that became undeniabley in support of the victims before final vindication (yesterday) AND YET STILL IDIOTS ARE TROTTING OUT THE SAME F UCKING OLD LIES AS IF THEY HAVE ANY CREDIBILITY LEFT? Just because they think it might or could have been true from their own groundless perspective. If people continue to peddle these myths then shame on them. It shouldn't be tolerated by any of us on NSC. It stops right now. All the slurs and implied fault laid at the door of LFC fans. Twenty Seven Years. We cannot imagine what it must have been like to take on the Establishement and actually win. None of us. The courage the people of Liverpool have shown all these years has left me in awe of their achievement. It's unsurpassed in the history of this country. A Peterloo moment, the impact and legacy from which will be felt for generations to come.

 

[The Wookiee]

How many ticketless fans turned up that day and were outside the ground ?

 

[The Wookiee]

Here is a question, if you were a amongst the crush outside the gates without a ticket, would you not feel a little bit guilty about what went on afterwards? Could you sleep at night knowing people had died ? Just saying if it were me, whatever a court said, I would feel guilty

 

[clapham_gull]

How many ticketless fans turned up that day and were outside the ground ?

1) No-one knows
2) It's been proved time and time again that it wasn't a factor

Again - the HSE reviewed the CTV outside the ground - painstakingly. They concluded (again) that ticketless fans (if they existed) did not contribute to the disaster.

It's a myth.

Taylor was under a lot of political pressure. Some on what he worked on has been proved to be lies, but the above wasn't. It was primary evidence.

.. but even he came to the conclusion that the fans weren't at fault. What he got wrong was not finding who actually was.

Drip drip into people's heads and it worked. Until yesterday....

 

[clapham_gull]

Here is a question, if you were a amongst the crush outside the gates without a ticket, would you not feel a little bit guilty about what went on afterwards? Could you sleep at night knowing people had died ? Just saying if it were me, whatever a court said, I would feel guilty

And many of those outside HAVE felt guilty and been blamed themselves for years (I'm sure you've read all the interviews)

Interestingly though not by any of the official reports and evidence - even at the time. Just by people who can't be bothered to read them and feel more comfortable believing the Sun or dodgy copper.

It must be really hard for some people to accept that everything they thought was true about the tragedy was disproved yesterday. Oh well they will get over it.

But imagine everything you KNEW was true was finally accepted yesterday.

 

[clapham_gull]

This. And it makes me really angry though that those of us who were lied to (everyone basically in the beginning), despite fairly early on being directed towards the truth (Taylor report) and then subsequently mounting evidence (the inquests) that became undeniabley in support of the victims before final vindication (yesterday) AND YET STILL IDIOTS ARE TROTTING OUT THE SAME F UCKING OLD LIES AS IF THEY HAVE ANY CREDIBILITY LEFT? Just because they think it might or could have been true from their own groundless perspective. If people continue to peddle these myths then shame on them. It shouldn't be tolerated by any of us on NSC. It stops right now. All the slurs and implied fault laid at the door of LFC fans. Twenty Seven Years. We cannot imagine what it must have been like to take on the Establishement and actually win. None of us. The courage the people of Liverpool have shown all these years has left me in awe of their achievement. It's unsurpassed in the history of this country. A Peterloo moment, the impact and legacy from which will be felt for generations to come.

I genuinely spoke to someone yesterday who thought yesterday was a "whitewash". In all respect to those who died I had to laugh. What an idiot.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I was watching the ten o'clock news tonight, and found out that some of the families were under surveillance whilst they were campaigning. What on earth did the police do that for? I can only think it was intimidation.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

How many ticketless fans turned up that day and were outside the ground ?

No one knows and the judgement deemed it to be non-contributory to the disaster. It would be foolhardy to say, categorically, that there were none as this would make it a unique match in the history of football in that period. Everyone who lived through that period knows that ticketless fans attended every big game, sometimes in large numbers. Ticket touts were a common sight, either selling or trying to buy off already ticketed fans. I, myself, went to some BHA games when we were in the top flight ( 79-83 ) without a ticket but with the intention of seeing the game. Sometimes I got in the home seats, sometimes I bought off touts and sometimes I just went in the ticket office and asked to wait to see if any tickets had been returned by away fans. I never failed to see a game.
On big games, ticketless fans used to travel just to sample the atmosphere and be there. No one knows for sure but there is a chance that there were Liverpool fans in local pubs, who heard of the gates being opened and ' chanced their arm ' I can't honestly say that I wouldn't have done the same thing, back then.
All would have been fine, extras could have been accommodated, if only the correct stewarding of fans to pens had taken place post gate opening. All control was lost from that point on.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

No one knows and the judgement deemed it to be non-contributory to the disaster. It would be foolhardy to say, categorically, that there were none as this would make it a unique match in the history of football in that period. Everyone who lived through that period knows that ticketless fans attended every big game, sometimes in large numbers. Ticket touts were a common sight, either selling or trying to buy off already ticketed fans. I, myself, went to some BHA games when we were in the top flight ( 79-83 ) without a ticket but with the intention of seeing the game. Sometimes I got in the home seats, sometimes I bought off touts and sometimes I just went in the ticket office and asked to wait to see if any tickets had been returned by away fans. I never failed to see a game.
On big games, ticketless fans used to travel just to sample the atmosphere and be there. No one knows for sure but there is a chance that there were Liverpool fans in local pubs, who heard of the gates being opened and ' chanced their arm ' I can't honestly say that I wouldn't have done the same thing, back then.
All would have been fine, extras could have been accommodated, if only the correct stewarding of fans to pens had taken place post gate opening. All control was lost from that point on.

The inquest found the number of fans at Hillsborough equated to the number of tickets sold. I have already mentioned this several times in this thread.

 

[Bwian]

1) No-one knows
2) It's been proved time and time again that it wasn't a factor

Again - the HSE reviewed the CTV outside the ground - painstakingly. They concluded (again) that ticketless fans (if they existed) did not contribute to the disaster.

It's a myth.

Taylor was under a lot of political pressure. Some on what he worked on has been proved to be lies, but the above wasn't. It was primary evidence.

.. but even he came to the conclusion that the fans weren't at fault. What he got wrong was not finding who actually was.

Drip drip into people's heads and it worked. Until yesterday....

Still working for some people it would seem.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

There's a plaque on the walls of Anfield . Tributes take place on anniversaries.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...cts-39-victims-30-years-Brussels-Anfield.html

View attachment 74070

I stand corrected and apologise. I didn't realise that Liverpool FC had moved the plaque to an outside wall. Far more appropriate and fitting. Good to see that tributes are still being paid.
My main point was that action should have happened immediately post Heysel. It was an incredibly insensitive and callous decision to continue with the game in the first place. Everyone involved should be hanging their heads in shame that they didn't treat this as a massive wake-up call. Safety certification for grounds staging big games should have been mandatory from that point. The Liverpool board and the FA, knowing the problems encountered at Hillsborough in 1988, chose to ignore them and ultimately paid the price. Bradford was another wake up call. There was just this blasé attitude that fans could be herded anywhere, treated like sheep and wouldn't complain.

 

[portlock seagull]

I genuinely spoke to someone yesterday who thought yesterday was a "whitewash". In all respect to those who died I had to laugh. What an idiot.

I'd love to see some of these idiots put in a room for half an hour and say that to the experts ie bereaved families. Even then it's not definite they'd change their minds because we live in a world where people take any correction to their opinion as a personal affront. And also one where people are increasingly stupid despite more information than ever available if you want to 'be informed'. So yes, laughing at someone who still thinks that after 27 years is probably all you could do as you say!

 

[The Albion Roar]

Irrespective of their behaviour and inappropriate approach to the Inquest, South Yorkshire Police's legal bill for the two-year Inquest...?

£24 million.

That's public money, of course.

 

[ROSM]

I was watching the ten o'clock news tonight, and found out that some of the families were under surveillance whilst they were campaigning. What on earth did the police do that for? I can only think it was intimidation.

Professor Phil Scruton who lectures in criminology was one of the first to spot issues with the police view of what happened. He dug and dug and was intimidated, observed and under surveillance from police officers because of it

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Professor Phil Scruton who lectures in criminology was one of the first to spot issues with the police view of what happened. He dug and dug and was intimidated, observed and under surveillance from police officers because of it

It's very worrying. All forces have bad apples, but it was institutionalised in that force.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

The inquest found the number of fans at Hillsborough equated to the number of tickets sold. I have already mentioned this several times in this thread.

I still find it amazing that in a fluid crowd of over 40,000, when ticketing systems were pretty basic and crowd control extremely difficult, that every single head could be accounted for. Fair play to them if they counted every single one. It must have been painstaking and taken hours and hours and hours.
Every game involves fans who don't turn up on the day, for whatever reason and don't or can't pass on their tickets to anyone else. Hence games that are sell-outs always have a few empty seats dotted around. One presumes their may also have been some fans, who, on seeing the terrible crush outside the ground, gave up on it and went home or retired to the pub. As the inquest states that headcount equalled ticket number, one can only assume that official ticket holders missing on the day, were replaced by those without tickets but those actually numbers can never be ascertained.

 

[heathgate]

The inquest found the number of fans at Hillsborough equated to the number of tickets sold. I have already mentioned this several times in this thread.

Who counted the thousands in the streets then?....

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