Hillsborough prosecutions

[portlock seagull]

I guess I'm old enough to be used to the idea that the notion of enquiry, evidence, fact and conclusion are fluid and subjective concepts to some people, those with pre-formed views, an easy disregard of inconvenient items, and the inclination to reshape 'facts' around a prior conclusion, so as to achieve a more satisfying perspective.

That said, I'm dumbfounded that folk who, on a football board, presumably have a passing interest in football, its history, its landmark moments and its tragedies, and who presumably keep informed about said isssues via respectable media outlets (the BBC, Times, Telegraph, Gaurdian, and not just the Fortean Times or Breitbart) can make absurd comments in a bland and careless fashion of the sort that have astonished quite a few of us on this thread this afternoon.

I am old enough to realise that some people will repeatedly reshape 'facts' to suit their own comfort (witness the discussion in parliament today about who is responsible for the flammable cladding fiasco).

However, I cannot fathom why anyone who will never let go of the idea that there is no smoke without fire, no football in the 80s without hooligansim, and no scouser without criminal intent is so naive that they expect to get a favourable reaction by responding to the latest news on the Hillsborough tragedy as if it is just another bit of silliness; best to move on; no smoke without fire, etc.

And if any snowflake rebukes me for lack of taste I have italicised the parts of the above that are ironic.

I may be old enough to be used to the insouciant stupidity of some folk, but I'm still not old enought to not give a shit, and not be angry when I see it. Once again, it is the careless indifference of individuals that poison the barrel, and it will be our downfall if it goes unchallenged.

Post of the Year.

 

[Albion 4ever]

So the police and authorities checked every fan present is that what your telling me? Bearing in mind it was chaotic on the day in question.

Yes, they did... http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/releases/hillsborough/me8934.pdf

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Spineless senior police who couldn't bear to put their hands up at the time and say "we got it wrong". What they did to try and cover this up for so many years was a complete disgrace. I have less sympathy for their mistakes now than I would have had they admitted their failings when it happened.

Sadly there was so much sympathy to the idea that football supporters are mostly all scum, and so much indifference to the welfare of people at a football match, at that time, that the old bill did not need to do a great deal, I suspect, to convince themselves that in actual fact it was the stupid supporters' faults, and they themselves had done nothing wrong. Life was quite different back then in mny ways. The police were much more a law unto themselves. I was inches from an unprovoked beating by a uniformed policeman in broad daylight not so many years earlier, and if I had complained nobody would have believe me. Thatcher could answer any question about the OB misbehaving with 'The British Police are marvellous, don't you think? They have such a difficult job and we must support them', and people lapped it up.

There was also a prevailing view in society that when a 'mistake' had been made (by people in authority, police, clergymen, school teachers...) it would be better to cover it up than allow it to be scrutinized. This was this reason that gave the master of the Rolls, Denning, the imperative to refuse an enquiry into the Guildford 4 (and other convictions later found to be miscarriages of justice). The idea was that British Justice could not survive if people were to lose confidence in it owing to daylight being shined onto its 'magic'. Linked to it is the concept of the 'greater good' (shorthand for doing small bad things so a big good thing can thrive).

Its all bollocks, that. Dangerous hegemonic bollocks.

Now, we are slowly realizing that a bit more honesty and enquiry are better in the long run. The next difficult thing to deal with, though, is politicians making plans in advance rather than being forced to emote and apologise after the inevitable tragedy. Politicians having the courage to put long term strategy ahead of short term gains (mostly in the ballot box) is, however, a long way off, judging by the evidence of experience, including recent exprience.... and their equivalent of putting a finger in each ear and singing 'la la la I can't hear you' will be the perennial default if they are not challenged.

 

[lawros left foot]

Sadly there was so much sympathy to the idea that football supporters are mostly all scum, and so much indifference to the welfare of people at a football match, at that time, that the old bill did not need to do a great deal, I suspect, to convince themselves that in actual fact it was the stupid supporters' faults, and they themselves had done nothing wrong. Life was quite different back then in mny ways. The police were much more a law unto themselves. I was inches from an unprovoked beating by a uniformed policeman in broad daylight not so many years earlier, and if I had complained nobody would have believe me. Thatcher could answer any question about the OB misbehaving with 'The British Police are marvellous, don't you think? They have such a difficult job and we must support them', and people lapped it up.

There was also a prevailing view in society that when a 'mistake' had been made (by people in authority, police, clergymen, school teachers...) it would be better to cover it up than allow it to be scrutinized. This was this reason that gave the master of the Rolls, Denning, the imperative to refuse an enquiry into the Guildford 4 (and other convictions later found to be miscarriages of justice). The idea was that British Justice could not survive if people were to lose confidence in it owing to daylight being shined onto its 'magic'. Linked to it is the concept of the 'greater good' (shorthand for doing small bad things so a big good thing can thrive).

Its all bollocks, that. Dangerous hegemonic bollocks.

Now, we are slowly realizing that a bit more honesty and enquiry are better in the long run. The next difficult thing to deal with, though, is politicians making plans in advance rather than being forced to emote and apologise after the inevitable tragedy. Politicians having the courage to put long term strategy ahead of short term gains (mostly in the ballot box) is, however, a long way off, judging by the evidence of experience, including recent exprience.... and their equivalent of putting a finger in each ear and singing 'la la la I can't hear you' will be the perennial default if they are not challenged.

And hopefully, in the spirit of this, Rudd will order an inquiry into Orgreave.

 

[Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews]

And hopefully, in the spirit of this, Rudd will order an inquiry into Orgreave.

i wouldn't hold your breath

 

[El Presidente]

Whilst I have massive sympathy for those who lost their lives and their loved one's, to totally exonerate Liverpool fans of any blame on the day is extremely misguided. Can they all honestly say they turned up in plenty of time for kick off, stone cold sober and all in possession of tickets? That I very much doubt. The Police did not cover themselves in glory and clearly panicked, hence opening the gates to the Leppings Lane end, the fault does not rest entirely with the Police. It was a disaster waiting to happen, some blame should be apportioned to all participants. Lessons have been learnt, changes implemented. No sense or fairness in going after blood now.

You are Kelvin Mackenzie and I claim my £5.

 

[Questions]

Should charge the many many ticketless fans as well.....Many scenarios contributed to this awful tragedy.

Did you write a report as well. You must publish it so we can read it and see that ticketless fans contributed to the poor souls deaths.

 

[Questions]

Whilst I have massive sympathy for those who lost their lives and their loved one's, to totally exonerate Liverpool fans of any blame on the day is extremely misguided. Can they all honestly say they turned up in plenty of time for kick off, stone cold sober and all in possession of tickets? That I very much doubt. The Police did not cover themselves in glory and clearly panicked, hence opening the gates to the Leppings Lane end, the fault does not rest entirely with the Police. It was a disaster waiting to happen, some blame should be apportioned to all participants. Lessons have been learnt, changes implemented. No sense or fairness in going after blood now.

Jesus words fail me.

 

[The Fifth Column]

Absolutely disgusting that both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn taking the stage and applauding and making positive sentiments in Parliament today when both their parties, who have alternatively been in power several times in the last 28 years, could have ensured this outcome 15-20 years ago. Hypocrites the lot of them.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

How many ticketless fans travelled to All Ticket big matches in the 80's. Did many Albion fans turn up to Highbury in 1983 expecting to get in without tickets?

I was at the Semi in 83 with a spare and sold it at Face Value to a tout,who i can only assume bought off me in the genuine belief that they could sell it on.

 

[cjd]

Absolutely disgusting that both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn taking the stage and applauding and making positive sentiments in Parliament today when both their parties, who have alternatively been in power several times in the last 28 years, could have ensured this outcome 15-20 years ago. Hypocrites the lot of them.

Politicians hypocrites ?.......my God, where did you get that idea from ?

Left wing scumbags and parasites and right wing fascists...burn them all.

 

[GT49er]

Good to see that a solicitor is among those charged.

 

[Beach Seagull]

I'd get a MOD to remove this post if I were you. I'll give you benefit of doubt that you're just badly informed and meant no malice, insensitive and misguided as your comments are. But because this is such a sensitive, appallling miscarage of justice and loss of life that's unique in British law, and it's a football matter, on a football forum, then you really ought not to be able to make such comments. It's not about entitlement to an opinion or free speech. This is an exceptional case, proved beyond doubt that the establishment caused, made worse and then covered up the deaths of essentially nearly 100 NSC'ers. Forget Paul Rogers situation, if anything should be muzzled on here, its people still perpetuating the lies and mistruths of that tragic day...like you.

Remove the post indeed!! Why because on a forum I've had the 'cheek' to express an opinion?? Agree hours of evidence but are you all seriously telling me every Liverpool fan on the day turned up sober, in plenty of time for the match and with a ticket? I used the expression 'totally exenorate' in my original post I didn't say I blame the Liverpool fans for what happened. A lot of you on here have a very left wing anti establishment view of the world and it's very much reflected on the comments you've made.

 

[lawros left foot]

Remove the post indeed!! Why because on a forum I've had the 'cheek' to express an opinion?? Agree hours of evidence but are you all seriously telling me every Liverpool fan on the day turned up sober, in plenty of time for the match and with a ticket? I used the expression 'totally exenorate' in my original post I didn't say I blame the Liverpool fans for what happened. A lot of you on here have a very left wing anti establishment view of the world and it's very much reflected on the comments you've made.

Well, you obviously know better than the Coroner, the jury, and in the most part, the press who sat through every minute of the inquest, read every bit of evidence, and heard every witness, i bow to your ability to be able to come to a conclusion that has been discounted by all these uninformed participants.

 

[chaileyjem]

Remove the post indeed!! Why because on a forum I've had the 'cheek' to express an opinion?? Agree hours of evidence but are you all seriously telling me every Liverpool fan on the day turned up sober, in plenty of time for the match and with a ticket? I used the expression 'totally exenorate' in my original post I didn't say I blame the Liverpool fans for what happened. A lot of you on here have a very left wing anti establishment view of the world and it's very much reflected on the comments you've made.

The jury did "totally exonerate" the fans. Why can't you ?

 

[lawros left foot]

Remove the post indeed!! Why because on a forum I've had the 'cheek' to express an opinion?? Agree hours of evidence but are you all seriously telling me every Liverpool fan on the day turned up sober, in plenty of time for the match and with a ticket? I used the expression 'totally exenorate' in my original post I didn't say I blame the Liverpool fans for what happened. A lot of you on here have a very left wing anti establishment view of the world and it's very much reflected on the comments you've made.

I am curious what you would want to happen now, ie, no prosecutions, no criminal trial for those implicated?

 

[neilbard]

Politicians hypocrites ?.......my God, where did you get that idea from ?

Left wing scumbags and parasites and right wing fascists...burn them all.

Don't forget the Liberals they make great effigies too!

 

[The Large One]

Remove the post indeed!! Why because on a forum I've had the 'cheek' to express an opinion?? Agree hours of evidence but are you all seriously telling me every Liverpool fan on the day turned up sober, in plenty of time for the match and with a ticket? I used the expression 'totally exenorate' in my original post I didn't say I blame the Liverpool fans for what happened. A lot of you on here have a very left wing anti establishment view of the world and it's very much reflected on the comments you've made.

You clearly haven't taken a blind bit of notice in the case over the past 28 years, so why start now? Especially when your meaningless prejudices are showing you up to be some kind of history revisionist.

Every question you ask has been answered by due process. The fact you're asking highlights your own ignorance in the case. So what value does your opinion have when you start from a position of falsehoods?

Seriously, go and read up on the case, and stop inventing scenarios which didn't happen.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Remove the post indeed!! Why because on a forum I've had the 'cheek' to express an opinion?? Agree hours of evidence but are you all seriously telling me every Liverpool fan on the day turned up sober, in plenty of time for the match and with a ticket? I used the expression 'totally exenorate' in my original post I didn't say I blame the Liverpool fans for what happened. A lot of you on here have a very left wing anti establishment view of the world and it's very much reflected on the comments you've made.

You expressed an opinion, which you are quite entitled to, but you must realise that your opinion is not fact, or even true. It is a pack of lies, that you believe.
The fans were totally exonerated. Being late, or having a drink, made no difference whatsoever to the tragedy.

Incidentally, I am slightly right of centre, so no left wing anti establishment agenda here.

 

[The Large One]

You are Kelvin Mackenzie and I claim my £5.

Nah - he's Norman Bettison. It's an extract from his book.