[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[dsr-burnley]

I certainly wasn't trying to belittle anyone, more a reflection of having a religion, and now an ethnicity, foisted upon me. I really don't know if my father believed in anything other than music so fairies seemed as good as anything. FWIW, If you can provide me with empirical evidence of this god then I would accept that it is insulting, but only to that god now proven to exist. Otherwise, I find it insulting to be expected to respect what I generally see as a form OCD or some such malady. We all believe a lot of nonsense and we all have the choice to live by that or something more tolerant, open and free-thinking.

For someone who is not trying to belittle anyone, you're aren't succeeding. Every line of your post is saying that you believe yourself to be a better person than people with different opinions - which, as I said, is more than half the world.

Other people do respect other people's opinions that they don't agree with. We tolerate their beliefs, even if we don't agree with them. If you choose to be intolerant and contemptuous of people with a different opinion to your own, then you can't validly claim to be tolerant and open.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Amazed the IDF have not gone in already. Surely just a matter of time?

Giving Hamas time to surrender, perhaps. They must have leaders on the ground who can turn a deaf ear to orders from the puppet masters in Qatar.

 

[Zeberdi]

Which somewhat confirms my opinion that it is a bit like having your cake and eating it.

If you criticise Judaism you may well be accused of being anti semetic, by claiming to be an ethnic group any criticism can be dismissed as a racism or anti semetism too. Even if the criticism is then aimed at the nation of Israel without reference to Judaism the conflagration of religion and national identity and ethnicity is again used to justify claims of antisemitism.

It seems as though creating blurred lines suits those seemingly above justifiable criticism.

So if I understand you correctly - you argue that Jews like myself, who self-identity ‘Jewishness’ as an ethnicity or race (as distinct from the religious element), are only doing so so as to arm ourselves with some kind of artificial construct to silence legitimate criticism - so we can still charge those that do dare to criticise us, with anti-semitism even though we are not religious Jews?

Can you see how that might be offensive?

May I suggest you read up on Nazi Racial Ideology - 6 million Jews were exterminated under Nazi-Germany and her allies because of race, including some of my own family, not because they were Judaists (although most actually were)

For Hitler, it was all about race, so for millions of Jews worldwide today, especially European Jews, who self-identify a racial aspect to their Jewishness, race matters - it’s not something artificially constructed to avoid criticism - it was the very grounds for which they were thrown into the gas chambers along with 5 million other ‘non-Aryan’ racial groups, sick children, homosexuals and gypsies, all of whom were a threat to Hitler’s desire to create a superior race.

Victims of the Nazi Era: Nazi Racial Ideology

The Nazis carried out genocide against Europe’s Jews and persecuted and murdered other groups based on racial theories. Learn about the history of these murderous ideas.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

 

[Justice]

Amazed the IDF have not gone in already. Surely just a matter of time?

An ex special forces guy says it is a high possibility Hamas have set traps and have planned for a ground invasion by Israel. It’s not an easy place to invade heavily built up areas with tunnels running underneath is a logistical nightmare and the reason Israel haven’t invaded as yet.

 

[Zeberdi]

An ex special forces guy says it is a high possibility Hamas have set traps and have planned for a ground invasion by Israel. It’s not an easy place to invade heavily built up areas with tunnels running underneath is a logistical nightmare and the reason Israel haven’t invaded as yet.

I imagine they are also waiting for the UN to create safe corridors to evacuate civilians (and get humanitarian aid/medics in)- there are still nearly 2 million Gazans effectively trapped in Gaza with no way out.

 

[BadFish]

f***ing Hell!!

Israel Defense Forces warn over 1 million Gazans to relocate to the south — as it happened

Israel tells civilians living in northern Gaza to head south, warning them the military will operate "significantly" in Gaza City in the coming days.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Guinness Boy]

So if I understand you correctly - you argue that Jews like myself, who self-identity ‘Jewishness’ as an ethnicity or race (as distinct from the religious element), are only doing so so as to arm ourselves with some kind of artificial construct to silence legitimate criticism - so we can still charge those that do dare to criticise us, with anti-semitism even though we are not religious Jews?

Can you see how that might be offensive?

May I suggest you read up on Nazi Racial Ideology - 6 million Jews were exterminated under Nazi-Germany and her allies because of race, including some of my own family, not because they were Judaists (although most actually were)

For Hitler, it was all about race, so for millions of Jews worldwide today, especially European Jews, who self-identify a racial aspect to their Jewishness, race matters - it’s not something artificially constructed to avoid criticism - it was the very grounds for which they were thrown into the gas chambers along with 5 million other ‘non-Aryan’ racial groups, sick children, homosexuals and gypsies, all of whom were a threat to Hitler’s desire to create a superior race.

Victims of the Nazi Era: Nazi Racial Ideology

The Nazis carried out genocide against Europe’s Jews and persecuted and murdered other groups based on racial theories. Learn about the history of these murderous ideas.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Quite. There are secular Jews in Israel because I know some of them. They still have a right to identify as a Jew.

It’s almost like you and I are repeatedly pointing this out and people aren’t reading.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I know it's a common way of saying "I am clever and you are stupid", but referring to God as a fairy is of course very insulting. Yes, it may be that you are right and the majority of the world is wrong, but there are ways and means of saying so, and those ways and means do not have to be offensive.

You’ve as much chance of proving the existence of either.

 

[Mental Lental]

f***ing Hell!!

Israel Defense Forces warn over 1 million Gazans to relocate to the south — as it happened

Israel tells civilians living in northern Gaza to head south, warning them the military will operate "significantly" in Gaza City in the coming days.

www.abc.net.au

Yep on the Beeb now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

Gonna be war crimes and genocide by the sounds of it.

How long does it ACTUALLY TAKE to evacuate 1.1 million people out of interest? Has it even been done before? Maybe in the Hurricane zones of East coast USA? I suspect 24 hours isn't long enough whatever the answer.

 

[crookie]

Anyone left will be a 'legitimate target' I guess. There will be a horrific loss of life here, dwarfing the number of Israelis who were murdered by Hamas.

 

[BadFish]

Yep on the Beeb now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

Gonna be war crimes and genocide by the sounds of it.

How long does it ACTUALLY TAKE to evacuate 1.1 million people out of interest? Has it even been done before? Maybe in the Hurricane zones of East coast USA? I suspect 24 hours isn't long enough whatever the answer.

Yep, this is madness.

The world seems to be 'standing with' . . . one side or other while it should be urging restraint.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

I know it's a common way of saying "I am clever and you are stupid", but referring to God as a fairy is of course very insulting. Yes, it may be that you are right and the majority of the world is wrong, but there are ways and means of saying so, and those ways and means do not have to be offensive.

In terms of religious belief most of the world is wrong. If any one religion (or atheism) is right, most (or all) of the rest of them are wrong. The fact that the majority of the world believe in contradictory religions shows that man is wired to believe, not that god exists.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Yep on the Beeb now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

Gonna be war crimes and genocide by the sounds of it.

How long does it ACTUALLY TAKE to evacuate 1.1 million people out of interest? Has it even been done before? Maybe in the Hurricane zones of East coast USA? I suspect 24 hours isn't long enough whatever the answer.

It’s an obvious move by the IDF.

It’s far easier to kill ‘anything that moves’ than avoid killing civilians. They have now made their position clear, it’s the fault of Hamas or the civilians who don’t evacuate if they die. The death toll for innocent Palestinians could reach over 100,000. Either murdered by the IDF or dying as a result of displacement with lack of food/water/shelter.

And our Government is 100% behind this potential genocide. But the seemingly neutral UN is outraged.

I’m sorry but if this happens, won’t it be just as evil as the Hamas attacks on innocent Israeli civilians?

 

[nicko31]

f***ing Hell!!

Israel Defense Forces warn over 1 million Gazans to relocate to the south — as it happened

Israel tells civilians living in northern Gaza to head south, warning them the military will operate "significantly" in Gaza City in the coming days.

www.abc.net.au

Its not practical.

Don't worry folks we're sending a couple of boats to the region

Israel-Hamas war: Gaza 'on brink of collapse', UN warns, after 'impossible' order to evacuate 1.1 million

Israel has told more than one million Palestinians to move to the south of Gaza, the United Nations says, as the country continues to move its defence forces to the border ahead of what could be a ground offensive.

news.sky.com

 

[Mental Lental]

It’s an obvious move by the IDF.

It’s far easier to kill ‘anything that moves’ than avoid killing civilians. They have now made their position clear, it’s the fault of Hamas or the civilians who don’t evacuate if they die. The death toll for innocent Palestinians could reach over 100,000. Either murdered by the IDF or dying as a result of displacement with lack of food/water/shelter.

And our Government is 100% behind this potential genocide. But the seemingly neutral UN is outraged.

I’m sorry but if this happens, won’t it be just as evil as the Hamas attacks on innocent Israeli civilians?

As a frame of reference. The evacuation of Dunkirk took over 3 days to evacuate 330,000 people. Those poor people aren't even being given a decent chance to get out in time.

 

[BadFish]

It’s an obvious move by the IDF.

It’s far easier to kill ‘anything that moves’ than avoid killing civilians. They have now made their position clear, it’s the fault of Hamas or the civilians who don’t evacuate if they die. The death toll for innocent Palestinians could reach over 100,000. Either murdered by the IDF or dying as a result of displacement with lack of food/water/shelter.

And our Government is 100% behind this potential genocide. But the seemingly neutral UN is outraged.

I’m sorry but if this happens, won’t it be just as evil as the Hamas attacks on innocent Israeli civilians?

They can also say that they warned the Palestinians before they attacked.

Neither Hamas nor Netanyahu's government will come out of this looking good to anyone except their supporters.

 

[Wellesley]

I’m new to this chat board . I’ve spent about an hour looking through comments on the top few threads .

I must admit other than what I’ve read on the BBC and the Guardian I don’t know much about the history of Israel .

What I’ve seen reported over the last few days though I don’t think I’ve ever seen before in my relatively short life . Babies being killed in front of their mothers , teenagers gunned down at random whilst dancing , whole families having their houses burnt down with them in it and I’m now reading reports that a pregnant woman was found with her womb cut open , the baby still attached by it’s cord and stabbed .

I’ve actually felt quite sick with what I read and I’m not even Jewish .

I totally understand that Israel hasn’t treated the Palestinians well over the years and I know the attacks were from Hamas and not ordinary Palestinians.

It seems to me that the only real way forward is to get rid of Hamas ( by force I presume ) let the Palestinians choose a new govt that is not made up of terrorists and move forward with a 2 state solution where both sets of people can live peacefully and in dignity .

Getting rid of the current Israeli PM would be helpful as well as he seems very right wing and I don’t think he is helping .

What I finding difficult to understand is what appears to be a lack of sympathy from people on this thread about the exceptional level of barbarity that ordinary citizens of Israel were subjected to in the initial attacks

It’s almost like some people have become desensitised to terror.

I’m not a supporter of Israel or any other country other than the UK but I do feel huge sympathy for both the Israelis and Palestinians but a bit more sympathy for the Israelis people that were murdered so violently especially as most seem to not even be military.

Yessssss! Another Guardian reader. We haven't got enough of those on here.

 

[Justice]

Yessssss! Another Guardian reader. We haven't got enough of those on here.

I don’t think this one is here anymore

 

[bWize]

The 'phosphorus missile video ' is from Ukraine

Not sure which video is being referred to but the use of white prosperous against Gaza has now been verified by the human rights watch.

"Israel’s use of white phosphorus in military operations in Gaza and Lebanon puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injuries, Human Rights Watch said today in releasing a question and answer document on white phosphorus. Human Rights Watch verified videos taken in Lebanon and Gaza on October 10 and 11, 2023, respectively, showing multiple airbursts of artillery-fired white phosphorus over the Gaza City port and two rural locations along the Israel-Lebanon border, and interviewed two people who described an attack in Gaza."

Source: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon

 

[dazzer6666]