[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Triggaaar]

A simplistic comparison to say the least. Israel's neighbours are aggressive to the state of Israel because it was carved out of lands by the USA and Britain with no respect for the people living there at the time. Britain just thought, well we own the land, we'll do what we like with our mates.

Now I don't know about you, if the British government and say France suddenly decided to carve a slice out of Sussex for all the channel boat people, give them independence as a state, AND arm them to the teeth ( despite those boat people deciding to kill British soldiers like the Israelis did ), I'd use what ever means to bring that slice of Sussex back under control of the UK - even if it meant me being a terrorist. Most people become terrorists due to circumstances beyond their control.

So you're saying that Israel was created unjustly and shouldn't exist, and its neighbours should do whatever it takes to remove Israel. Ok. In those circumstances, what do you think the innocent people living in Israel (it's not their fault the stupid Americans and Brits put Israel there) should do? It's pretty obvious that they're going to fight to defend themselves.

So you think they should all fight forever more. Ok.

 

[carlzeiss]

Not sure what you mean here. Can you explain a bit more?

The link posted came from the BBC no less , not sure how it could be made more palatable

 

[Guinness Boy]

The link posted came from the BBC no less , not sure how it could be made more palatable

I know and I pointed out that to Zeberdi. I just don’t understand the follow up comment you made.

 

[Zeberdi]

@Zeberdi - I think when you copy and paste from BBC Breaking it renders the text how LBTS and Carlzeiss posted. They are posting about deaths of UK or US citizens. It's very relevant to the news angle of this story, which is how the thread started. I'm minded to let the posts stand. I don't see what you see. That said.....

@Live by the sea I've just wasted a nice chunk of a sunny afternoon wading through reports of posts, almost all of the reported ones are by you. At the least you are unintentionally offending people. At worst you are trolling. Please think about what you're posting because you're one wrong move from being removed from this thread permanently and NSC for a short time and, given that you flounced on Sunday and have already come back, I guess that's not what you want.

Thanks - I understand that but it being pasted as it was with no links or quotation marks, hot on the heals of the same poster accusing me of anti-semitism (for arguing human rights of Palestinians and Israeli alike should be respected) and accusing me of being an ‘apologist’ and ‘supporter of terrorism’, even questioning the existence of my own Jewish identity and basically not ‘giving a sh+t‘ that Israeli’s are dying ….

Well forgive me for being a little triggered when it seemed apparent to me, in the context of some of the above exchanges the motive of posting it was to be deliberately provocative and not to inform people of the news -I apologise if it was a genuine effort to contribute towards a sensible debate.

 

[Bakero]

I just wanted to ask some questions about this comment which could focus on the counter-argument here:
1. Are Israelis represented by a "normal, democratic government with the usual human rights and code of conduct"?
2. Is Israel effectively behaving however it likes and has never hidden its intention to destroy, or significantly weaken, Palestine?

Let's allow the Israeli defence minister to field this:

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." Yoav Gallant

 

[Hugo Rune]

Let's allow the Israeli defence minister to field this:

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." Yoav Gallant

They’ve turned off the water as well.

It’s going to be tens of thousands dead I fear? It seems that they are intent on replicating the horrific evil that has just been bestowed upon them in their revenge.

This is not going to end well at all. I think the world could be on the edge of a linked up global conflict. Next up, Serbia/Bosnia.

 

[Live by the sea]

Suspect all supplies will be turned back on in a few days . There’s no history of Israel turning all energy off permanently that I could find on google .

The only real danger of the death toll considerably is if Israel goes into Gaza - there will be fierce close up fighting . The Israelis probably feel they have little choice if they are serious about dealing a significant blow to Hamas.

Just walked past a ‘ Vigil ‘ I guess you could call it outside Hove Town Hall in support of the people killed in Israel . Looked like a couple of hundred people

I stayed for a few mins , the leader of Btn & Hove council spoke as did the mayor .

A few other dignitaries I think but I was too far away to make out who they were .

There were tv cameras there so maybe you will see it on the news .

One of the Rabbis ? I think spoke quite movingly of how easy it is to get on with people who look like you and share similar interests but it’s harder for some people to feel the same with people that don’t look like them and don’t have similar interests and only by shining a light on the darkness can true peace be found . Or something like that .

I didn’t personally hear anyone blame the Palestinians for the atrocities , it was squarely blamed on Hamas and the whole Islamist terror network .

 

[herecomesaregular]

Let's allow the Israeli defence minister to field this:

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." Yoav Gallant

Never understand this sort of talk, similar "treated like a dog". Well, I hope you don't treat your dog badly thank you.

My only comment really on this situation is that the men who shot the ravers, took the women and children and took that poor German girl (alive then killed her?) and paraded her body in a truck to a celebratory crowd (I've seen the video) are scum.
The Israeli government, by their actions in recent years, are also scum.
So, plenty of scum on both sides. And then plenty more innocent people on both sides, who die.
Pray that there can be a peaceful situation soon but sadly doubt it. Sometimes, I believe there is a God and they deliberately stoked up a written religion (bible, koran whatever) as a population control method. A zebra has a lion to prey on it and keep numbers down, man has no natural predator so God stoked things up after recognising their mistake - to ensure man killed man.

 

[beorhthelm]

sounds medieval, one side raids for murder and ransom, the other side cuts off water and supplies in a siege.

 

[Zeberdi]

They’ve turned off the water as well.

It’s going to be tens of thousands dead I fear? It seems that they are intent on replicating the horrific evil that has just been bestowed upon them in their revenge.

This is not going to end well at all. I think the world could be on the edge of a linked up global conflict. Next up, Serbia/Bosnia.

And it won’t be a proportionate response - Gaza could end up looking like Alepo or Mariupol - A terrorist attack on Israel met with, for all intents an purposes, an obliteration of Gaza, will further radicalise generations to come on both sides of the conflict.

I’m afraid this is already linking up - simply by virtue of the geo-political relationships between the ‘superpowers’ having longstanding vested interests in the regions of Africa, Europe and the Middle East - not difficult to destabilise populations of civilians already deeply divided on ideological and religious grounds…

“There are fears in the West that Russia, acting through its ally Serbia, is trying to destabilize the Balkans and thus shift at least some attention from its aggression on Ukraine.”

What is behind renewed tensions between Serbia and Kosovo?

There are fears in the West of a revival of the 1998-1999 war in Kosovo that claimed more than 10,000 lives and left over 1 million homeless.

www.pbs.org

I would say Taiwan too particularly vulnerable

So important to keep our ‘moderate heads together’ when all around us people are loosing theirs

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

Let's allow the Israeli defence minister to field this:

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." Yoav Gallant

In this case 'human animals' includes children, old people and the disabled. If you use this type of rhetoric you can't go around bombing and starving civilians (not that you should behave like that in any case).

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Suspect all supplies will be turned back on in a few days.

Oh that’s okay then.

Starving 2.5 million innocent people of food, water, medicine and electricity is no biggie, if it’s only for a few days.

it’s almost as though the Israeli government have a policy designed to push desperate people into the arms of Hamas. It’s absolutely baffling.

 

[A1X]

Cutting off the water is barbaric. It is collective punishment of the innocent.

Morally, there is little difference between this action and the firing of rockets into crowded areas of Ukrainian towns by Putin. Both are deliberate targeting of innocent civilians as part of an ostensibly military conflict.

 

[Zeberdi]

This is a very concerning development of escalating violence. Palestinian Islamic Jihad firing rockets into Israel from Lebanon and Israel firing rockets at Hezbollah across the Lebanese border - two of the protagonists I mentioned upthread that could escalate a broader conflict in the Region if they joined forces with Hamas, Iran and Iraqi Iranians -

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/live...ws-israel-orders-complete-siege-of-gaza-strip -

Israel needs to seriously exercise some restraint in ‘punishing’ Gaza or it wont just cause a generation of new radicals but major fcking all out war in the Middle East that will leave no alternative but for the US to come to the defence of Israel along with presumably her allies.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Your two statements kind of contradict each other.

I almost always sit on the fence so yes, they probably do.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Let's allow the Israeli defence minister to field this:

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." Yoav Gallant

There have been many governments in history that have purposely 'de-humanised' populations of innocent civilians to enable said government to carry out genocide etc unchallenged by their own population. Of any government in the world, ever, you'd think the Israeli government would understand this type of language and why it shouldn't be used.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Can totally understand the argument of enough is enough

No sympathy though for attacking women, children, parading their bodies through the streets, go after the IDF. I don't accept the argument that civilians have voted the current incumbents in to power so everyone is culpable

attacking the music festival is a cowardly act and the sight of that poor German tourist in the back of the Hamas jeep, knowing her fate, just unspeakably grim.

A LOT of Israelis don't like Netanyahu and I would guess that would apply to the many who attended a peace and music festival.

 

[Easy 10]

Sometimes, I believe there is a God and they deliberately stoked up a written religion (bible, koran whatever) as a population control method. A zebra has a lion to prey on it and keep numbers down, man has no natural predator so God stoked things up after recognising their mistake - to ensure man killed man.

But this would lend credence to the notion that there is some all-powerful ancient mythical sky fairy who controls everything here on Earth. There isn't.

Man invented their gods, and man has forever fought wars in their gods name. It will never end.

 

[A1X]

A LOT of Israelis don't like Netanyahu and I would guess that would apply to the many who attended a peace and music festival.

In many ways, this is a golden opportunity for him to shore up subsiding support among the hardline nationalists he relies on

 

[Wardy's twin]

There have been many governments in history that have purposely 'de-humanised' populations of innocent civilians to enable said government to carry out genocide etc unchallenged by their own population. Of any government in the world, ever, you'd think the Israeli government would understand this type of language and why it shouldn't be used.

Tend to agree but how would you describe people who slaughtered 100s of non combatants and took great pleasure in parading dead bodies as trophies.