[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[JC Footy Genius]

This horrendous Hamas attack has certainly highlighted to me how badly the Palestinians are being treated

Yes, quite a few people seem to have made a similar journey, many out on UK streets waving Palestinian flags within a few days of the atrocity.

Personally, the horrendous Hamas attack highlighted to me the constant threat Israelis live under and what a loathsome organisation Hamas is.

 

[aolstudios]

Yes, quite a few people seem to have made a similar journey, many out on UK streets waving Palestinian flags within a few days of the atrocity.

Personally, the horrendous Hamas attack highlighted to me the constant threat Israelis live under and what a loathsome organisation Hamas is.

Well, exactly

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes, quite a few people seem to have made a similar journey, many out on UK streets waving Palestinian flags within a few days of the atrocity.

Personally, the horrendous Hamas attack highlighted to me the constant threat Israelis live under and what a loathsome organisation Hamas is.

But that's somewhat ignoring WHY Hamas came into being is it not ?

 

[Bakero]

Yes, quite a few people seem to have made a similar journey, many out on UK streets waving Palestinian flags within a few days of the atrocity.

Personally, the horrendous Hamas attack highlighted to me the constant threat Israelis live under and what a loathsome organisation Hamas is.

 

[borat]

Why do you think Starmer acted as he did then?

It's fairly simply.

It's Because Starmer for years has purposely and maliciously weaponised anti-semitism to reach his political objectives - including through expelling numerous Jewish members that don't unequivocally toe the pro Israeli party line.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Personally, the horrendous Hamas attack highlighted to me the constant threat Israelis live under and what a loathsome organisation Hamas is.

I think that's completely fair enough. I don't think anybody on here has argued otherwise (not that I have seen, anyway).

I'm in the same boat actually - the heinous attacks were utterly sickening, and I can't imagine what it must have been like to experience such events - or even to live, and continue to live, in the areas where they took place (and where possibly similar could happen again).

Equally, seeing the subsequent Israeli response, followed by a lot of reading here and elsewhere about the more general situation, have made me very much more aware of the plight of the general population of the Palestinian territories, and the attitudes of the Israeli governments towards them. Whilst the deprivations and hardships of those peoples lend themselves less to sensationalist ghoulish headlines, their suffering is just as real - and for decades.

As I have commented previously - neither side in this conflict are the 'goodies'. It a desperately sad situation, with no simple answers - and the actions of the decision-makers on both sides right now are actively recruiting the next generation of extremists.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

There's quite a bit to unpack here.

Israel has slaughtered a couple of thousand children in the last couple of weeks, with their indiscriminate bombing. Were they also 'difficult to distinguish from Hamas soldiers'? When you are indiscriminately raining munitions down on a hemmed in population, from miles away, what people are wearing doesn't seem remotely relevant, does it?



Hamas are a murderous terrorist organisation. Of course the Israeli government and armed forces should be held to a higher f***ing standard. Good f***ing grief.

8,000 deaths in 25 days of air strikes in a densely-packed area of 3 million people? It may be many things, but it's certainly not indiscriminate

 

[Bozza]

I think that's completely fair enough. I don't think anybody on here has argued otherwise (not that I have seen, anyway).

I'm in the same boat actually - the heinous attacks were utterly sickening, and I can't imagine what it must have been like to experience such events - or even to live, and continue to live, in the areas where they took place (and where possibly similar could happen again).

Equally, seeing the subsequent Israeli response, followed by a lot of reading here and elsewhere about the more general situation, have made me very much more aware of the plight of the general population of the Palestinian territories, and the attitudes of the Israeli governments towards them. Whilst the deprivations and hardships of those peoples lend themselves less to sensationalist ghoulish headlines, their suffering is just as real - and for decades.

As I have commented previously - neither side in this conflict are the 'goodies'. It a desperately sad situation, with no simple answers - and the actions of the decision-makers on both sides right now are actively recruiting the next generation of extremists. :sad:

That's a very decent summary of my position too.

Over the last three weeks or so, I've learned that I was previously woefully uninformed on the whole situation. I certainly won't pretend to be highly knowledgable now, but I know more than I did. And, like you, I've been left stunned at the way the Israeli forces and settlers seem able to kill at will without fear of retribution. Living where we do, I can't imagine a scenario where people could head over to a nearby village, kill a few people, return home and that is the end of the story. No arrests, no investigation and no consequences for the killers.

But because I can feel empathy towards the plight of the many Palestinians who just wish to be able to live in peace without fear, that doesn't mean I can't feel exactly the same for the people of Israel and, more broadly, Jewish people worldwide, because I absolutely do. It also doesn't mean I support Hamas in any way. I have nothing but contempt for Hamas and the atrocities they are responsible for. The whole region would be better if they didn't exist, although I have no idea how that can be achieved.

Yet, both NSC and me directly has come under attack for being antisemitic even though nothing could be further from the truth. We've permanently banned those who have expressed antisemitism via posts on here.

It really does seem to be the case that those who have unwavering support for Israel don't seem capable of reading and understanding those who may question their government's actions. It absolutely does not mean the author of those questions is antisemitic and wishes any ills upon Israel's people nor the wider Jewish population.

 

[nicko31]

But that's somewhat ignoring WHY Hamas came into being is it not ?

And somewhat ignoring the Israeli government backing of Hamas to ensure a 2 state solution was off the table.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Hamas are the government of Palestine. It's a sad truth that they do represent ordinary Palestinians, whether the ordinary Palestinians want them to or not.

There is no means of com[promise between the man who wants a baby dead, and a man who wants a baby to live. They cannot both have just part of what they want. Only one can be pleased. Obviously Israel does have the alternative of simply closing the border, letting Palestine fend for itself with support from whoever wishes to give it them, but I suspect that would be considered inhumane as well. One thing can be stated with near certainty - that no Palestinians will be allowed to cross the border from Gaza as long as Hamas are in charge.

(Even if Palestine's infrastructure was intact, they would still be struggling. It's pretty clear that the Israeli policy of supplying fuel and water to Gaza is going to stop, probably forever. They are going to have to make their own via desalination plants. They used to have an aquifer, but they didn't maintain it and it is contaminated by pollution and sea water.)

A tiny bright spark - after WW2, the German support for Hitler faded away very quickly as the Germans realised what an evil government had been representing them. Part of this was by showing every adult and near-adult German a film of the atrocities such as Belsen. Perhaps the Palestinians could be shown what has been done in their name and see if that helps. Though possibly the religious indoctrination is even more deep rooted than the Nazi indoctrination; so many of them may be too far gone down the "Jews are evil" line to ever get over it.

Agree.

 

[raymondo]

The memory of the holocaust plays a part but there are other factors. Firstly, having a key ally in the region is crucial for the US's strategic ambitions. Secondly, you have the Christian Zionists who believe we need the Jews in the Holy Land to beget the second coming. I appreciate that last point might seem a little outré but these fellows have had sway across the pond since before the founding fathers.

"...who believe we need the Jews in the Holy Land to beget the second coming. "

Well I never knew that, very interesting. Can't see a second coming sorting much out positively though.

 

[Bakero]

8,000 deaths in 25 days of air strikes in a densely-packed area of 3 million people? It may be many things, but it's certainly not indiscriminate

The majority of those 8000 deaths are women and children. Hospitals and health centres have been hit. Schools and markets. UNRWA buildings. Whole streets demolished. It's not exactly precision strikes.

In the most deadly months of the Irag war the civilian death toll didn't exceed 3300. The one-month count of Palestinians may well be triple that.

 

[nicko31]

View attachment 168981

Death ratio 50:1 on a per capita basis

 

[Bakero]

"...who believe we need the Jews in the Holy Land to beget the second coming. "

Well I never knew that, very interesting. Can't see a second coming sorting much out positively though.

Christian Zionism

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Christian Zionism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Christian Zionism: the interfaith movement hiding in plain sight | Aeon Essays

It’s one of the most successful, and in some ways unlikely, interfaith movements in the modern world

aeon.co

Israel’s Current Crisis Exposes Christian Zionism’s Contradictory Ideals

Evangelical supporters of the country, who have long taken sides in the country’s politics, are neutral about the recent political unrest

newlinesmag.com

 

[raymondo]

Christian Zionism

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Christian Zionism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Christian Zionism: the interfaith movement hiding in plain sight | Aeon Essays

It’s one of the most successful, and in some ways unlikely, interfaith movements in the modern world

aeon.co

Israel’s Current Crisis Exposes Christian Zionism’s Contradictory Ideals

Evangelical supporters of the country, who have long taken sides in the country’s politics, are neutral about the recent political unrest

newlinesmag.com

Thanks, I'll have a read during the coming 2 days of storm .

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes, quite a few people seem to have made a similar journey, many out on UK streets waving Palestinian flags within a few days of the atrocity.

Personally, the horrendous Hamas attack highlighted to me the constant threat Israelis live under and what a loathsome organisation Hamas is.

What do you think Israel were hoping to achieve when they funded the set up and development of Hamas ?

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

What do you think Israel and the west were hoping to achieve when they funded the set up and development of Hamas ?

that and Israeli settlers constantly stealing more and more land, never going to end well.

 

[borat]

The memory of the holocaust plays a part but there are other factors. Firstly, having a key ally in the region is crucial for the US's strategic ambitions. Secondly, you have the Christian Zionists who believe we need the Jews in the Holy Land to beget the second coming. I appreciate that last point might seem a little outré but these fellows have had sway across the pond since before the founding fathers.

There are powerful lobby groups in the States e.g. AIPAC who fund pro-Israeli candidates and seek to block dissenting voices from even running.

Pro-Israel lobbying group Aipac secretly pouring millions into defeating progressive Democrats

American Israel Public Affairs Committee has disguised its efforts to undermine pro-Palestinian candidates

www.theguardian.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/03/06/the-dark-roots-of-aipac-americas-pro-israel-lobby/

Another powerful lobby group is the right wing Christian United For Israel who have around 10 million members.

You can see how much is openly distributed to Congress on the link below. Joe Biden earning a tidy $4 million over the years.

Pro-Israel Recipients

See aggregated party breakdowns and incumbency status of recipients of contributions from Pro-Israel industries/interest groups for every election cycle from 1998 to 2024.

www.opensecrets.org

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

There are powerful lobby groups in the States e.g. AIPAC who fund pro-Israeli candidates and seek to block dissenting voices from even running.

Pro-Israel lobbying group Aipac secretly pouring millions into defeating progressive Democrats

American Israel Public Affairs Committee has disguised its efforts to undermine pro-Palestinian candidates

www.theguardian.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/03/06/the-dark-roots-of-aipac-americas-pro-israel-lobby/

Another powerful lobby group is the right wing Christian United For Israel who have around 10 million members.

You can see how much is openly distributed to Congress on the link below. Joe Biden earning a tidy $4 million over the years.

Pro-Israel Recipients

See aggregated party breakdowns and incumbency status of recipients of contributions from Pro-Israel industries/interest groups for every election cycle from 1998 to 2024.

www.opensecrets.org

who'd a thunk it was all about money, religion pah

 

[WATFORD zero]

who'd a thunk it was all about money, religion pah

Of course it's not about religion. Jews, Muslims, Christians all worship the same God FFS. Northern Ireland Protestants and Catholics, all Christian.

Divide and Conquer, it's all about Power, Land, Control and Money. Same as it ever was