[Politics] Gender pay gap

[Deleted member 18477]

The sad reality is that women in business are generally not as good as men. That’s a fact. They are great at many things but if you took ten average men and ten average women the men would be better 8/10. They have more drive, are less volatile and work harder. They also cry a lot less and accept constructive criticism much better. Men here fore deserve to be paid more in business. I base that on 25 years of business.

when my partner has a baby, I'm taking a year off and she can get her ass back to work whilst I stay at home and breast feed.

On a serious note, as a man, I also find working with men easier however women would probably say the same about women... times have changed and we both need to work together now. I disagree with a man being paid more because he's a man and also women being paid more because they're women. Quite simply, if said person has required skill, experience and can do a job they should be paid X. A man with 25 years experience in a business being paid 100k a year vs a lady doing the same job with 2 years experience being paid 50k seems fair to me... However a woman being paid 50k with 25 years experience as well is not fair.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But that is completely the point. How do you know women don't want to fly planes? When men say 'not many women want to fly planes' it reinforces a stereotype that men do one type of job and women do another (that is generally paid less).

This is not about individual companies, or sectors. It is about society; why women are generally in the lower paid jobs and why men are in the higher paid ones?

It is a debate that is very necessary.

Debate? If you measure one thing then say it means something else then you are an idiot or a charlatan. Read the whole thread. Conflating issues means the chauvenists and status quo-ists will win.

 

[Deleted member 18477]

The problem with people these days is they want immediate compensation and immediate heads rolling. Simply effecting change so future generations can benefit is the furthest thing from people's minds.

This. A lot of industries pay on skill, experience and loyalty and if all 3 things match between genders then equal pay is a no brainer and justified.

Some industries pay on shares of profits (like football). Men's game generates more than women's game so they get paid more.

 

[StonehamPark]

Quite simply, if said person has required skill, experience and can do a job they should be paid X. A man with 25 years experience in a business being paid 100k a year vs a lady doing the same job with 2 years experience being paid 50k seems fair to me... However a woman being paid 50k with 25 years experience as well is not fair.

But unfortunately most people don't share this intelligence and common sense.

 

[ozzygull]

I guess the question is, if this was the other way round and women were paid more, would men just accept it? I agree that this report is pointless unless we are told about the underlying circumstances that make up these statistics. What would be nice if someone actually asked why girls who do statically much better at school then boys end up in the lower paid jobs. No knee jerk reactions actually ask the average women. I believe that It may turn out to be nothing deliberately sexist, but the life choices that we make. The top paid jobs in a company will probably mean you have to compromise your life and your family, being at the jobs back and call. I don’t think the majority of women want that. Despite what some misogynists say it has nothing to with intelligence or ability.

I am a senior network engineer and worked in IT for over 25 years, I decided very early on that I wanted to be technically the best I could be, but I did not want to be a manger, no interest at all. But luckily for me I choose a career that is well paid.

if you and your partner were equally paid do you not think that it would be better for you, if pressure to be the “bread winner” was shared?

The reason I ask is that my husband who also worked in IT got made redundant, because it was quite a specialist role and his age he found it really difficult to find another job doing the same thing. He has moved in to a completely new career, which of course means a massive pay cut. The only reason we have be able to afford for him to do this is because of my salary. It is the best thing that could of happened because he is so much happier doing what he is doing now, and this makes me happy.

Now if we had the more traditional relationship where he was the high earner, I was in a low paid job, in order for us to pay the bills, he would have been forced to try to continue in a role he was unhappy with, otherwise financially we would have been in trouble and the stress he would have felt during that time would have been much more. So rather then seeing women being more equal as some sort of threat the way I see things, it benefits everyone.

Anyway the main problem I see with all these reports is that as a women I am represented by some feminist group that I never asked to be and I bet most women feel the same way. Do I believe that we live in an equal society, no, not even close, but I want to be able to fight my own battles about the things that are important to me.

Sorry! That’s the end of my ramble.

 

[dazzer6666]

I managed a person who was paid £12k a year more than I was, I am paid more than my manager who is a female.

My manager has not delivered and managed large projects and services like I have, my manager is far more ambitious than I am but we are at different points of our careers.

Should my manager be paid more than me ?

Not always. Not unusual for technical specialists or those with particular experience to be paid more than the person managing them - I’ve experienced it a few times (ie had people reporting to me that were paid more).

 

[El Presidente]

When I’m interviewing the choice is based on which candidate has the better experience, qualifications and enthusiasm for the job. If those are equal then it comes down to who has the better tits.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The sad reality is that women in business are generally not as good as men. That’s a fact. They are great at many things but if you took ten average men and ten average women the men would be better 8/10. They have more drive, are less volatile and work harder. They also cry a lot less and accept constructive criticism much better. Men here fore deserve to be paid more in business. I base that on 25 years of business.

I guess it depends which industry you’re in. Because, put simply, in my industry your thoughts are absolute bollocks. I base this on 24 years of business. But part of me thinks this isn’t a serious post.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Typical government/media/public knee jerk response. Someone correctly reports inequality as an issue and the whole thing goes turbo, people get outraged, everything gets dropped and rather than addressing the issue everyone wants to blame someone and make someone pay. Just quietly introduce some legislation that redresses the balance and we can all get on with our lives in hopefully, a more equal environment.
The problem with people these days is they want immediate compensation and immediate heads rolling. Simply effecting change so future generations can benefit is the furthest thing from people's minds.

Hmm. I’m not surprised that some people want heads to roll for egregious outright discrimination.

After all, there is previous legislation on this matter: Equal Pay Act 1970, Sex Discrimination Act 1975, Pensions Act 1995, and Equality Act 2010, just to name four off the top of my head that have attempted to close the undoubted gaps that do exist.

How many generations do women have to wait to benefit before you’d advocate naming, shaming, hounding, and prosecuting those who flagrantly disregard the Law?

 

[beorhthelm]

Hmm. I’m not surprised that some people want heads to roll for egregious outright discrimination.

After all, there is previous legislation on this matter: Equal Pay Act 1970, Sex Discrimination Act 1975, Pensions Act 1995, and Equality Act 2010, just to name four off the top of my head that have attempted to close the undoubted gaps that do exist.

How many generations do women have to wait to benefit before you’d advocate naming, shaming, hounding, and prosecuting those who flagrantly disregard the Law?

the trouble is not all jobs are equal, not employees do the same number of hours in a given jobs, not all employees take the same opportunities or ask for pay rises etc. that before taking account of different jobs having different pay and attracting men and women in different proportions. you cant legislate for all this.

 

[Goldstone1976]

the trouble is not all jobs are equal, not employees do the same number of hours in a given jobs, not all employees take the same opportunities or ask for pay rises etc. that before taking account of different jobs having different pay and attracting men and women in different proportions. you cant legislate for all this.

You seem to be implying that because it’s complicated, there’s both no outright pay differential in some situations (same job, same experience etc), and also no need to try to eliminate those differences. I disagree on both counts.

In my experience, some employers use precisely the arguments you have cited to perpetuate pre-existing discriminatory pay practices, which is, imo, both illegal and immoral.

 

[beorhthelm]

You seem to be implying that because it’s complicated, there’s both no outright pay differential in some situations (same job, same experience etc), and also no need to try to eliminate those differences. I disagree on both counts.

In my experience, some employers use precisely the arguments you have cited to perpetuate pre-existing discriminatory pay practices, which is, imo, both illegal and immoral.

if its illegal, already covered by existing legislation, then the persons affected can do something about it. pretending we can legislate for diverse individual career plans, ambitions, work-life aims is nonsense. all this pay gap reporting tells us is on median average women get paid less in most companies - which we pretty much already knew. it doesnt tell us why, it doesnt tell us where the problems lie or what might be done about these. it discounts there may be many happy with for disparity of pay, i.e. working flexible hours in preference to more pay. its simply crude stick to be seen to do something, and as such wont address discriminatory practices.

risks are that positive discrimination creeps in or you have policies such as no individual pay rises, or ban on flexiworking, part time roles disappear etc. theres an interesting conflict here, because else where thare are campaigns to promote these practices to help mothers back into work.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Only because you are choosing to use the statistics in an incorrect manner. Use them to say what they are saying and they are fine.
People do this all the time and it is atarting to get really annoying. People need to stop reading what they want from them, or just reading the headline. Read how they were collected, look at what they are and what they say they are. That is all.
They say there is a gender pay gap. Nothing more.

But in the case of Ryanair this is misleading. BBC called Ryanair, and I quote, "one of the worst offenders".

Offenders.

The truth is accusing them of 'offending' is completely unfair considering the majority of pilots are male and these are the higher paid roles. If they were paying the same roles differently based on sex then yes.

The chair of the British Women Pilots Association, Marion Woolridge recently said “The proportion is very slowly coming up but it is still miniscule. There are a lot of advantages to aviation as a long-term career because of its flexibility and the equality with which we are trained and paid."

So she herself has no gripes with equality for women pilots....yet Ryanair are seen as reported "offenders" in a report about a gender pay gap.

If people want to take these stats as they are, then don't attach words like "offenders" in. Of course they will be defended.

 

[edna krabappel]

The sad reality is that women in business are generally not as good as men. That’s a fact. They are great at many things but if you took ten average men and ten average women the men would be better 8/10. They have more drive, are less volatile and work harder. They also cry a lot less and accept constructive criticism much better. Men here fore deserve to be paid more in business. I base that on 25 years of business.

"That's a fact"? No it's not.

Anybody who dares to imagine we live in a truly equal world: read this load of misogynistic old shit and consider for a second that barely a single user has challenged it.

Well done, guys. Well done.




(apologies for the language, by the way. Sometimes you need a bit of emphasis to make a point)

 

[Giraffe]

Anybody who dares to imagine we live in a truly equal world: read this load of misogynistic old shit and consider for a second that barely a single user has challenged it.

Well done, guys. Well done.

Not misogynistic at all. It's the cold reality. I work with and have worked with some very good women who are excellent in business. However they are the exception not the norm. Time and time again I have seen some talented individuals let down my emotions, personal issues, inability to look at things logically, difficulty in focusing on one issue at a time. All things you need to be able to do in business. I'm not saying all women are rubbish, I am not, but generally speaking a man is more likely to be good at his job in a business environment than a woman.

There are however lots of roles where woman thrive more than men. My point is that at the higher level it is harder for woman to perform because men and women are naturally different and the sooner we accept nature for what it is the better the world will be rather than unnaturally fighting it.

 

[edna krabappel]

Not misogynistic at all. It's the cold reality. I work with and have worked with some very good women who are excellent in business. However they are the exception not the norm. Time and time again I have seen some talented individuals let down my emotions, personal issues, inability to look at things logically, difficulty in focusing on one issue at a time. All things you need to be able to do in business. I'm not saying all women are rubbish, I am not, but generally speaking a man is more likely to be good at his job in a business environment than a woman.

There are however lots of roles where woman thrive more than men. My point is that at the higher level it is harder for woman to perform because men and women are naturally different and the sooner we accept nature for what it is the better the world will be rather than unnaturally fighting it.

Of course it's misogynistic. You stated it to be a fact. It's not a fact at all: you're arrogantly confusing your own personal opinion with indisputable fact.

I could say that's a trait that's more likely to be found in men, but that would be sexist and wrong on my part.

 

[Mellotron]

I had to read that in the voice of Alan Partridge.

Could easily be from the pages of I, Partridge or Nomad (which incidentally gets better with every read.)

 

[Giraffe]

Of course it's misogynistic. You stated it to be a fact. It's not a fact at all: you're arrogantly confusing your own personal opinion with indisputable fact.

I could say that's a trait that's more likely to be found in men, but that would be sexist and wrong on my part.

Okay well it's my opinion based on my experience of working with thousands of people, female and men. I can guarantee there will be many reading this who agree with what I am saying but are too scared to state their view but I can assure that if on paper two candidates are similar the guy will probably get it because the odds are he will be less hassle to manage. That's the issue women in business need to address. I can count on one hand how many men I have seen cry at work. I've lost cont how many women have. The moment the tears start they have lost credibility.

 

[edna krabappel]

I can assure that if on paper two candidates are similar the guy will probably get it because the odds are he will be less hassle to manage.

Once again, no, you can't assure me that, for ****'s sake, unless of course you're the one doing the interviewing, in which case, yes I imagine those big strong manly MEN will be straight in the door.

 

[edna krabappel]

I can count on one hand how many men I have seen cry at work. I've lost cont how many women have. The moment the tears start they have lost credibility.

It's a big coincidence, isn't it, that all these women seemingly keep bursting into tears when they're working with you.

I can't say I've ever noticed that problem in my office.