French Election - Hope wins over hate

[lawros left foot]

Then perhaps I was the wrong person to answer. Since I was a child I have watched the eu morph from a common market to something more integrated, that is in spite of all the protestations from Jacques Delores onwards that this would not be the end goal. Lies upon lies. Doesn't mean I oppose all that the eu has done, but I dislike the lack of local accountability, the huge wastage and policies like the CAP which was a massive gravy train to undeserving farmers (not all farmers are undeserving!) The march towards a superstate is alarming and without modern precedent. Moving towards such 'big' and unaccountable government is very dangerous and has been, along other factors, one of the main fuels for the rise in populism and nationalism. I do not think the eu project will end peacefully if it continues to integrate and does not heed the warning signs.

I'm not criticising you, personally, it's just such a good post by cheshunt seagull that I would have thought more leavers would have tried to give an honest answer, with examples of the EU subverting British Parliamentary democracy, but, as you are the only one to answer with,quite frankly, conjecture and opinion,I take it ,no such examples exist.

 

[Soulman]

I'm not criticising you, personally, it's just such a good post by cheshunt seagull that I would have thought more leavers would have tried to give an honest answer, with examples of the EU subverting British Parliamentary democracy, but, as you are the only one to answer with,quite frankly, conjecture and opinion,I take it ,no such examples exist.

Just dropped in, on holiday, in Britain, not really in the mood to answer yet another post, long winded.

 

[lawros left foot]

Just dropped in, on holiday, in Britain, not really in the mood to answer yet another post, long winded.

Blimey,mate, you've been on here at least three times today, turn off your computer, and enjoy your holiday, for goodness sake.

 

[Weststander]

Interesting that, during this period of direct rule by Brussels: Blair was able take us into a disastrous war and Brown/Cameron managed to destroy public finances/services (delete as applicable).

Admittedly a lot of legislation has come from the European Parliament (of which we are a voting member) in areas like basic minimum levels of employment rights and the environment, safety standards etc. but these still gave our government plenty of scope to grow the zero-hours contract economy. I am not sure that working class Brexit voters were looking for even less employment security from the decision. However if they were looking for an increase in well paid, secure employment then they should have looked more carefully at the people financing and supporting the Leave vote.

Have you got any examples of major areas of legislation in which Brussels has subverted the democratic will of the British people? I don't think bananas and under-powered vacuum cleaners really count.

The anti EU sentiment has long standing backers such as Corbyn, McDonnell and our more hardline unions leaders. Yes, they were content with improved workers rights, but then despised the EU for being in their opinion:

It being capitalist system and big business driven

Immigration driving UK wages down due to an unlimited supply of cheap labour

The same over supply of labour giving employers the upper hand

Exacerbating globalisation, strengthening the ever growing hand of multinationals

The EU super nation has led to poverty and vast swathes of have-nots on the EU fringes such as in Greece and southern Spain, whilst countries such as a Germany with most of the capital grow ever wealthier.

So the anti EU movement contains unlikely bedfellows from either end of the political spectrum. Those lazily typing that it's simply right wing nationalists really haven't followed this.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Not everyone who voted Brexit is a UKIP supporter. That there is one of your big mistakes. You seem to think Brexit and UKIP are interchangeable. I would have thought my comments about Le Pen and Farage would have made that blindingly obvious that it ain't necessarily so.

I do not think Brexit voters and UKIP voters are automatically interchangeable at all and you are mistaken to think I do. The best dinner table Brexit debates I have involve a Leave-voting friend from East London who is actually in favour of more immigration. His case against the EU involves other things. I know that he (like the duplicious Gove when faced with one of Farage's stunts) shudders when he considers some of his fellow Leave voters. There is a degree of nose-holding. If you are of a similar position then I appreciate your sensitivity. But don't be too sensitive; don't imagine charges of racism against you when none exists. For the five millionth time: I don't think all Brexit voters are racist xenophobes who would support Marine le Pen. Some of them are my friends.

(Having said that, whilst not wanting to spoil things, I agree with many people that there are regularly-occurring common themes in the recent flurry of populist surges we've had across the West - and that some of those themes are deeply unattractive. Bloody horrible in fact.)

 

[Two Professors]

No answers for this post yet?

 

[Two Professors]

No answers for this post yet?

 

[Two Professors]

No answers for this post yet?

 

[Two Professors]

No answers for this post yet?

There are a few for starters.Can't be arsed to post the 15,000 odd others.

 

[lawros left foot]

View attachment 85123

Steered through Parliament by Ed Milliband.


And, really none of your other posts really address the question,do they?



So, not subverting British Parliamentary democracy.

 

[Buzzer]

I do not think Brexit voters and UKIP voters are automatically interchangeable at all and you are mistaken to think I do.

You keep claiming this so maybe stop with sweeping statements like this one when mentioning the FN campaign being race-led.

A similar message appeared to get a rather larger percentage in England.

and this one where you've lumped all Brexit voters together (again):

Too many British voters got taken in by headline-chasing cheapskate populists, relatively few French voters did. This will make NSC's angry Brexiteers very happy. And England a poorer place.

 

[Buzzer]

Steered through Parliament by Ed Milliband.

...So, not subverting British Parliamentary democracy.

You are aware that EU directives have a direct effect on member states and it is up to them to modify their legislation to comply with EU directives? This is the very heart of why most people voted Brexit. We want the UK courts and Parliament to be the highest and ultimate source of legislation. Rubber-stamping EU directives is not democracy as I know it.

 

[Buzzer]

The best dinner table Brexit debates I have involve a Leave-voting friend from East London who is actually in favour of more immigration. His case against the EU involves other things. I know that he (like the duplicious Gove when faced with one of Farage's stunts) shudders when he considers some of his fellow Leave voters. There is a degree of nose-holding. If you are of a similar position then I appreciate your sensitivity.

Fair dos on this comment and I probably share a lot of opinions as your friend. My reasons for voting Brexit were the EU institutions, politicians, bureaucrats and Euro/ECB-related, pure and simple. On immigration, I'm not particularly hung up on numbers but rather the distribution across the UK. I think the failure of immigration is that they've been largely coralled into the poorest parts of urban Britain and those places have seen huge changes and strains and it's created closed communities. If immigration were more evenly spread across every community then we'd go a long way to solving the problem.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I'm not criticising you, personally, it's just such a good post by cheshunt seagull that I would have thought more leavers would have tried to give an honest answer, with examples of the EU subverting British Parliamentary democracy, but, as you are the only one to answer with,quite frankly, conjecture and opinion,I take it ,no such examples exist.

It is a good question. I agree that we should all be able to justify our vote. I would say it is of equal importance for remainers to answer the question, which eu law, if deemed worthy, could not have been passed by our parliament?

 

[Buzzer]

I'm not criticising you, personally, it's just such a good post by cheshunt seagull that I would have thought more leavers would have tried to give an honest answer, with examples of the EU subverting British Parliamentary democracy, but, as you are the only one to answer with,quite frankly, conjecture and opinion,I take it ,no such examples exist.

How about EU rules on fishing quotas which have decimated the UK fishing industry? There's a reason why all those Cornish fishermen voted for Brexit and it wasn't about bent bananas or metric weights.

 

[5mins-from-amex]

35% of French voters chose a NATIONAL FRONT candidate.

Its actually Front National, but I'm sure you already knew that.

 

[lawros left foot]

How about EU rules on fishing quotas which have decimated the UK fishing industry? There's a reason why all those Cornish fishermen voted for Brexit and it wasn't about bent bananas or metric weights.

Does that include the Cornish fishermen who sold their quotas to the Spanish?

 

[Soulman]

You keep claiming this so maybe stop with sweeping statements like this one when mentioning the FN campaign being race-led.



and this one where you've lumped all Brexit voters together (again):

Seems to creep into a lot of posts, shame really.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That's true actually and unpopular/crooked MP's can get booted out by their local electorate such as Neil Hamilton. Other systems do allow unpopular figures to creep into Parliaments under the radar.

Spot on. As we all know, Adolf got in only because of PR. With PR we'd have had Martin 'sweetie' Webster et al oleaginating all over parliament. Funnily I wanted to add a left wing unelectable iconoclast to the short list for sake of balance, but I can't think of any. Maybe its because the right think up absurd but simple solutions to our ills, and become famous, while the left think up absurd but complicated solutions, and we all nod off in a stupor. I couldn't name one single CPGB candidate from the last 40 years. Anyway . . . this is a long thread and I'd best read it before mouthing off any more

 

[Buzzer]

Does that include the Cornish fishermen who sold their quotas to the Spanish?

I expect not seeing as the Cornish fishermen who were so vocal about Brexit were the ones who were still out fishing. Getting back to your question, do you concede that EU law has directly had a detrimental effect on the UK fishing industry?