Football's Silent Shame - Inaction on Alzheimer's/CTE

[Seagull58]

Sam Baldock has clearly studied this issue and decided that heading the ball is just not worth the risk.

 

[Acker79]

Of course there are issues... this is the exact point about informed consent. Professional sport, by its very nature, involves the process of pushing the human body *beyond* what it is normally capable of, in terms of long term strain and increased risk of trauma.

No professional sports person goes into this completely blind... they explicitly accept the increased risk because of the rewards (be that financial or ego massage or self motivation).

But if they don't have all the information - that's the point. Without the study it is guesswork and assumption. Some people, maybe even most people, might not change a thing after the study, but at least they'd be less blind.

There are no studies that you can perform in the laboratory that will measure the impact in later life of repeatedly hitting a modern soccer ball with your head, being elbowed, falling over badly, etc. The only study possible is for an academic paper following up on the later lives of a decent sized sample of ex-footballers, a control group and a comparative test group of other professional sportspeople from a completely non contact sport. This would only happen if someone is willing to sponsor a PHD (or something similar). For a week's wages a PL-level footballer could fund this, but none of them have... because they already know that there is a risk and that the level of 'risk to reward' is acceptable.

Again, people are focusing too much on heading the football and not address the wider issue of general head injuries, and the policies and procedures around them. A PhD student won't have the expertise to properly assess the information, a PhD student sponsored by a premier league football won't have the access to a wide enough sample. It has to come from the football authorities.

And how can they really know the risk (and thus the level of risk to reward) is acceptable if they haven't had all the information?

Everything else is just "Health and Safety gone mad"... attempting to remove all risk from life is a hugely short sighted attempt at creating some utopian, sanitised, pure white, bacteria-free world where everyone is wrapped in cotton wool but has developed no immune system, never enjoys an adrenalin rush and might as well be dead because life isn't worth living.

But that is a not what they're trying to do. It's the sort of propaganda you get during political campaigns. This isn't about removing all risk, it's not about making football a non-contact sport, and that is why such responses are non-sense. It's about understanding what the risks are, to develop policies and attitudes that minimise the risk in a reasonable manner.

Can't see where you actually gave that to me as an answer but never mind. If it happens (and I don't see it as necessary or useful at all) it WILL find a link for the reasons stated earlier. That's not to say there isn't a historical issue with players from earlier eras who suffered the equivalent of industrial injuries on a par with former miners suffering from emphysema or power/construction/demolition workers suffering from Asbestosis. By all means research that - but leave the modern game alone. As you say 'Elf and Safety will demand action on the inevtiable negative findings.

It was at the end of the post you quoted. I put it at the end because it was a point for everyone I quoted and I didn't want to repeat myself.

Your argument seems to be "we know the results are going to show a link, and we don't want to change what we do so we're not going to bother with a study", which to me seems like just burying your head in the sand and also seems to contradict your assertion that the problem has been solved. If the problem has been solved, why are you so sure that a link will be found?

 

[father_and_son]

A PhD student won't have the expertise to properly assess the information, a PhD student sponsored by a premier league football won't have the access to a wide enough sample. It has to come from the football authorities.

We clearly aren't going to agree on the basics, but your comments above are utter tosh.

1. PHD students are *by definition* the experts in the field they are studying... that's why they are given a doctorate at the end of it.

2. The "football authorities", by which I assume you mean the FA (or UEFA or FIFA?) are experts in running football (and even that is debatable), they know f**k all about medicine and specifically brain trauma. I would be surprised if more than a few even have Sports Science qualifications! They may pay for the study and massage the results for the press, but that will be the limit of their involvement - It will still be done by an academic institution.

3. Regardless of who sponsors the analysis, a "wide enough sample" can only be obtained by contacting ex-footballers and having them agree to release personal medical information and, possibly, undergo further medical assessments and consent to the data being used. This collection of subjects for analysis is absolutely standard in academia... it has nothing to do with the Premier League or indeed the FA/UEFA/FIFA. The academic would just approach the PFA to use their contact list to approach ex-players - absolute bread and butter stuff when working on academic papers in the medical field.

 

[Acker79]

We clearly aren't going to agree on the basics, but your comments above are utter tosh.

1. PHD students are *by definition* the experts in the field they are studying... that's why they are given a doctorate at the end of it.

A PhD student is "by definition" a student. Still learning, and growing. They are still developing. That's why they get their qualification at the end of their work. I'm talking about studies by people who have already qualified and built reputations as experts in their area, and are much, much less likely to make basic errors, rather than relying on someone just starting out in the field.

2. The "football authorities", by which I assume you mean the FA (or UEFA or FIFA?) are experts in running football (and even that is debatable), they know f**k all about medicine and specifically brain trauma. I would be surprised if more than a few even have Sports Science qualifications! They may pay for the study and massage the results for the press, but that will be the limit of their involvement - It will still be done by an academic institution.

3. Regardless of who sponsors the analysis, a "wide enough sample" can only be obtained by contacting ex-footballers and having them agree to release personal medical information and, possibly, undergo further medical assessments and consent to the data being used. This collection of subjects for analysis is absolutely standard in academia... it has nothing to do with the Premier League or indeed the FA/UEFA/FIFA. The academic would just approach the PFA to use their contact list to approach ex-players - absolute bread and butter stuff when working on academic papers in the medical field.

You suggested a player sponsor it, when I say it has to come from the football authorities (yes FA, FIFA, or UEFA) I mean they have to be the one sanctioning/sponsoring it, not a player. A recognised and well respected doctor carrying out a study with the blessing of one of the football authorities, will get a better access and more cooperation, than some kid trying to do a PhD having been sponsored by Robbie Savage.

The sample is wider if the FA or FIFA instructs/encourages clubs and players, managers, etc to participate in the study than if they don't. We're not just talking about former players, we're talking current players, we're talking coaching staff, medical staff, etc to get a picture of everything necessary (i.e. including policies and attitudes to head injuries and the like).

 

[Acker79]

A PhD student will have to go through the same process to get something published as anyone else. Basic errors simply won't make it through.
Also, the already qualified people you speak of will be on the paper and doing the study as well, with the help of PhD students!

Yes, but getting published comes toward the end, and they may not even get published - they won't have to put it forward until after they've completed the research part of their studies. A PhD student could spend a few years on this study and at the end of it find they have made basic errors, and fail to get their PhD or even published.

I honestly can't understand how anyone thinks someone doing a study as a student (i.e. someone who does not yet have a PhD, and at the end of the study may fail to earn one) is comparable to someone who has qualified, has earned a PhD and has an established career and reputation. Yes, the qualified Doctor may use PhD students to do some of the grunt work, but they will also be overviewing everything, picking up the errors as they go along, and be bringing a wealth of experience.

 

[BigGully]

I think you will find that professional footballers gave up heading the ball with any vigour in approximately 1995 or 96 !!!