EU Referendum NSC opinion poll 2015

[cunning fergus]

You seem to be suggesting that business can do what it likes as long as provides jobs? Is this correct?

No, I accept the consequences of globalisation and what that means for workers.........and largely it's not good.

Contrary to many on here I just don't accept that workers are definitively better off by being in the EU........job security is not a given in or out. In fact it's now much worse in countries like Greece and Spain.

The UK low skilled workers in particular have been thrown to the dogs, their interests are evidently not served by a free labour market.

Employers of course, well they are in the ascendency, which is the way the EU wants it.........it's Tory lite neo liberal bollocks.

It's why you support it and I don't.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The UK low skilled workers in particular have been thrown to the dogs, their interests are evidently not served by a free labour market.

Indeed. Walk into any Aldi or hotel and try and find a British person being employed. And I don't buy the argument that British people are too lazy to get those jobs - they just expect to be paid a fair wage.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

NHS is just the same, nurses skivvying along for next to nothing. And don't ask me about my GP surgery. And the village dentists. All foreigners!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

NHS is just the same, nurses skivvying along for next to nothing. And don't ask me about my GP surgery. And the village dentists. All foreigners!

The key phrase was "LOW SKILLED" - hardly includes nurses or GPs.

 

[Triggaaar]

It is very difficult to give any weight to the opinions of those who cannot even spell a five letter word correctly.

People in glass houses:

I just wonder if the middle eastern culture is too tied to historic tradtion for its' own good.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

The key phrase was "LOW SKILLED" - hardly includes nurses or GPs.

I was talking to a Lincolnshire farmer at a family wedding last month. He told me that his friends and neighbours prefer to employ foreign workers because they are brighter and harder-working.

I doubt if that's a complete explanation. I doubt if there are any complete explanations. All sorts of factors operate. Immigrants tend to be more flexible than local workers. Almost by definition, they are more likely to respond better to tough demands. They might have fewer obligations. They may be more driven, less idle. They may indeed be prepared to accept lower wages (and there is evidence in some places that high migrant populations depress pay). All these things seem true to me, and true of immigrants in general - the English abroad as much as the Polish here.

Lots of reasons I think but I may be wrong. The problem may be as you say, that it's simply that the English refuse to accept 'unfair' wages. In a way, I hope you're right. If you are, the problem will be solved when Osborne's 'living wage' kicks in - the English will be prepared to do those jobs now being taken by foreign people. But I'm pretty sure it's more complicated than that.

 

[wellquickwoody]

People in glass houses:

9 letter word with a letter missed, not a 5 letter word with a wrong letter :

 

[Buzzer]

I was talking to a Lincolnshire farmer at a family wedding last month. He told me that his friends and neighbours prefer to employ foreign workers because they are brighter and harder-working.

I doubt if that's a complete explanation. I doubt if there are any complete explanations. All sorts of factors operate. Immigrants tend to be more flexible than local workers. Almost by definition, they are more likely to respond better to tough demands. They might have fewer obligations. They may be more driven, less idle. They may indeed be prepared to accept lower wages (and there is evidence in some places that high migrant populations depress pay). All these things seem true to me, and true of immigrants in general - the English abroad as much as the Polish here.

Lots of reasons I think but I may be wrong. The problem may be as you say, that it's simply that the English refuse to accept 'unfair' wages. In a way, I hope you're right. If you are, the problem will be solved when Osborne's 'living wage' kicks in - the English will be prepared to do those jobs now being taken by foreign people. But I'm pretty sure it's more complicated than that.

And they will most certainly have less rights, less likely to go to the authorities if the boss is doing something illegal, less likely to get unionised, less likely to know the laws of the land, more likely to feel intimidated.

The British low skilled are the most vulnerable group when it comes to losing their jobs to migrant workers, it's absolutely without a doubt and it really doesn't help anyone when someone who clearly will never be affected in the same way just points at the low-skilled and says "You're lazy, you're thick, you're too much trouble". Look where the low-skilled British are mainly - it's in deprived areas where they simply haven't had the same chances, they are more likely to live in poverty and all the problems that brings.

And then to add to all that - the migrants are pushed into the same areas as the low-skilled British workers where they compete for housing, schools, social care, medical assistance....and still the same sneering types shout Little Englander at these low-skilled British workers when they complain when the area change beyond recognition in a matter of a few years and they can't get housing and they can't get jobs. I'm not accusing you of being the sneery type but I've certainly seen lots of those types of comments on social media memes over the last few years.

In every society there will always be low-skilled workers but they should have the same rights as the rest of us. I think those rights have been reduced for the sake of some perceived greater good. They've largely been ignored and when they try to speak up about their situation they are either patronised with comments like "should have worked harder" or they are told it's racist to be worried when their local school has children speaking 20 different languages. I don't want to put words in Cunning Fergus's mouth but I suspect that these types of things are what he is getting at.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

9 letter word with a letter missed, not a 5 letter word with a wrong letter :

We're all prone to the odd typo, but I think you may be digging yourself a deeper hole here.

 

[Hampster Gull]

No, I accept the consequences of globalisation and what that means for workers.........and largely it's not good c.

Adam Smith would disagree

 

[beorhthelm]

I doubt if that's a complete explanation. I doubt if there are any complete explanations. All sorts of factors operate. Immigrants tend to be more flexible than local workers.

i'll offer you an explaination, partially anecdotal, partially experience, one i believe recognised in studies if not wholey agreed (there are indeed many factors ).

the typical migrant worker has made a lot of effort to get where they are, and are there to work. they have drive if not enthusiasm and the job is probably better conditions and pay than offered where they were. (exceptions apply of course. ) meanwhile the native worker with similar drive has gone off to find a career, maybe in retail, in office work, a driver, many other options, because picking veg out of the ground is one of the grimest of jobs in our society. the irony of course is the student back packer, probably from a very middle class upbringing that wouldnt dream of picking veg in Lincolnshire will happily do so in Provance or whereever, for wages below that which the local french worker would accept.

 

[8ace]

its true that a large proportion of business want to stay in, but there's also a lot saying out. its far from a clear verdict as some would like to pretend, dont believe the "in" propaganda. as the bookies got the election and Labour leader so very wrong early doors, i dont think you should give that much weight.

Which election market in particular did they get wrong

With the Scottish referendum, their were a lot of people on here tugging themselves stupid everytime a new poll came out ,whereas the shrewdies only had to have a quick glance at the machine to see the true picture.
Two horse races are easier to price up, assess (hard to find value) - and the fav usually wins.

 

[GT49er]

Ha ha - who the hell decided there should be different spellings of dene/dean eh ? Bloody English !

No, it was probably the bloody Normans!

 

[Lincoln Imp]

No, it was probably the bloody Normans!

Actually, I don't think it was in this case. Westdene Seagull is right! The sun is shining! No one is deluded!

 

[cunning fergus]

Adam Smith would disagree

Adam Smith advocated lassiez faire free market economics, and it's why the wealth of nations was Margaret Thatcher's bible.

I have no doubt that the economic theory has merit, however in the context of a free labour market in the EU it will not deliver fairness for the vulnerable low skilled British working classes.

So there you have it, it's little wonder the most ardent supporters of the EU are neo liberal capitalists..........they love a good profit margin, especially if it's built off the back of the poor.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Adam Smith advocated lassiez faire free market economics, and it's why the wealth of nations was Margaret Thatcher's bible.

I have no doubt that the economic theory has merit, however in the context of a free labour market in the EU it will not deliver fairness for the vulnerable low skilled British working classes.

So there you have it, it's little wonder the most ardent supporters of the EU are neo liberal capitalists..........they love a good profit margin, especially if it's built off the back of the poor.

I bet you're a right laugh down the pub.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Adam Smith advocated lassiez faire free market economics, and it's why the wealth of nations was Margaret Thatcher's bible.

I have no doubt that the economic theory has merit, however in the context of a free labour market in the EU it will not deliver fairness for the vulnerable low skilled British working classes.

So there you have it, it's little wonder the most ardent supporters of the EU are neo liberal capitalists..........they love a good profit margin, especially if it's built off the back of the poor.

As an aside I went to see U2 last night; Bono was very complimentary about Europe.

 

[Triggaaar]

9 letter word with a letter missed, not a 5 letter word with a wrong letter :

The missed letter was a simple typo, I wasn't even talking about that. Keep looking

 

[cunning fergus]

As an aside I went to see U2 last night; Bono was very complimentary about Europe.

Why wouldn't he be.............

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/14/jean-claude-juncker-luxembourg-tax-deals-controversy

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/e...os-tax-avoidance-depriving-poor-28509721.html

 

[GT49er]

Actually, I don't think it was in this case. Westdene Seagull is right! The sun is shining! No one is deluded!

Don't know about the last bit - most people on tis thread seem to think that those who hold the opposite view are deluded!