[News] Energy bills to top £4200 at the start of next year

[Springal]

[tweet]1557451027586158599[/tweet]

 

[beorhthelm]

1) You always talk about the benefit to our pensions of privatisation of public utilities but it is a stupid argument IMO. If you want to make the case that we all benefit, then it certainly isn't as egalitarian as public ownership so that the least well off can be properly looked after. With pensions, the bigger your pension the more you benefit - and the poor don't really do private pensions do they?

2) That 215% is a projection for the winter and probably reflects the rise from what was £1300 pa for the average household to the revised projection of £4600 (up from £4200 2 weeks ago). And even 74% is appalling when you consider the average EU rise is half that figure.

im highlighting the selectiveness, shareholders are bad hedge funds narrative, ignores the vast majority of people in the country are beneficaries. accept the point on public ownship and will see you with argument about public money then needed for investment. it is all very selective, tax on one company but not another, chap on radio this morning said windfall taxs should not apply to Drax or other electricity producers as they need to reinvest.

if the 215% is projection, then why are they not projecting for other countries. other than France they are all rising. Germany has already risen ~60% and rising further as they remove cap limits. so the information is clearly false.

 

[beorhthelm]

Shocking

Half of the gas we use comes out of OUR North sea.

We need a temporary price cap on the primary producers.

would you say we should cease exports to europe to keep the price down? would you agree we subsidise any supply from europe or elsewhere, trading above the price cap?

we are not facing a shortage, we are facing excess demand, so these measures would be necessary.

 

[A1X]

I don't think that Liz is reading the room.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62513966

Nobody is suggesting that companies should suffer windfall tax on products that involve choice, or that energy companies don't need profit to re-invest. Neither should they be taken into public hands (that would cost billions and many of our pension share investments are bound up in them)

But the chickens have come home to roost.

I have share holdings. But will not invest in oil or utilities I believe should be in public hands. And to be making vast sums of profit on the back of bulk buying, and upping the price before the stocks being used have reached the level of cost that caused that rise are in use, is immoral. But that is what is happening.

The government has spent a lot of money trying to prop up those minor players who were going bust. It's time time to tax those who have profited in folk's misery.

And I think a lot of Torys are temporary Socialists on this one.

If anything it shows the clear and almost total disconnect between Tory party members, who Tweedledum and Tweedlecomplete****ingidiot are talking to pretty much exclusively, and the wider public.

 

[LamieRobertson]

I guess the average EU figure quoted is skewed somewhat by the low figure for France which is controlled by the majority state owned Macron government ..interesting to see that EDF is suing said government for 8 billion odd euros who are in turn looking to buy the 16% it doesnt own….so could be suing itself

 

[Simster]

im highlighting the selectiveness, shareholders are bad hedge funds narrative, ignores the vast majority of people in the country are beneficaries. accept the point on public ownship and will see you with argument about public money then needed for investment. it is all very selective, tax on one company but not another, chap on radio this morning said windfall taxs should not apply to Drax or other electricity producers as they need to reinvest.

if the 215% is projection, then why are they not projecting for other countries. other than France they are all rising. Germany has already risen ~60% and rising further as they remove cap limits. so the information is clearly false.

Your posts read like they've been typed out on a 1990s mobile phone and you've been given a 30 second time limit to bash it all out. It's really quite difficult to understand what you're trying to say.

And your idea that it is somehow a problem that public money is used for investment is utterly bizarre. That's part of public ownership - the nation pays for the upkeep and modern investment but also gets to regulate what it charges. Far preferable to privatisation which hasn't worked at all - fat profits going to shareholders, not enough investment, the state has bailed out failing companies and the poor are not protected from dreadful price hikes.

I notice you ignored my comment that even the 73% increase (your figure) is almost twice as high as in the EU.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Interesting discussion on yesterdays episode of Wake up to Money R5 (available for catch up on Sounds)….an independent energy consultant and the guy who runs Octopus….broadened the topic without too much political bias

 

[WATFORD zero]

Your posts read like they've been typed out on a 1990s mobile phone and you've been given a 30 second time limit to bash it all out. It's really quite difficult to understand what you're trying to say.

And your idea that it is somehow a problem that public money is used for investment is utterly bizarre. That's part of public ownership - the nation pays for the upkeep and modern investment but also gets to regulate what it charges. Far preferable to privatisation which hasn't worked at all - fat profits going to shareholders, not enough investment, the state has bailed out failing companies and the poor are not protected from dreadful price hikes.

I notice you ignored my comment that even the 73% increase (your figure) is almost twice as high as in the EU.

I'm not the only one who struggles understanding the meaning of long strings of words with no capitals and very little punctuation then

However, what I have ascertained is that his posts are, whilst a little confused, and whether it be on Increasing Energy costs, the Awarding of PPE contracts (on the other thread at the moment), Inflation, The oncoming recession, Brexit etc etc they always seem to defend the Government position whilst gently taking the thread off topic.

Probably just coincidence though

 

[beorhthelm]

I notice you ignored my comment that even the 73% increase (your figure) is almost twice as high as in the EU.

my point is the data is flawed, the numbers are not consistent with other reports.

 

[Simster]

my point is the data is flawed, the numbers are not consistent with other reports.

And my point is "why make that point?" when the real issue remains that our rises are considerably higher than those in the EU, even if one tweet has exaggerated the numbers?

 

[beorhthelm]

And my point is "why make that point?" when the real issue remains that our rises are considerably higher than those in the EU, even if one tweet has exaggerated the numbers?

it bothers me that people will take advantage of a crisis to drive other agendas. maybe i shouldnt, just let others enjoy the echo chamber.

 

[LamieRobertson]

30 all

 

[nicko31]

Seems to be a lot of talk of £5000 energy cap, that said I think some of the usual tabloid suspects are in bidding war.

They need to be careful printing these kind of headlines, with a complete absence of clarity and leadership from the government a lot of people really are terrified

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Seems to be a lot of talk of £5000 energy cap, that said I think some of the usual tabloid suspects are in bidding war.

They need to be careful printing these kind of headlines, with a complete absence of clarity and leadership from the government a lot of people really are terrified

And they are are doing the energy companies’ job for them by scaring people into signing up for inappropriate fixed rate deals. The Government should be stepping in to regulate these deals.

 

[KZNSeagull]

EDF is an interesting one as they are in big trouble and about to be fully nationalised, they have lost 1bn a month over the last 6 months as half(?) of their nuclear capability is offline and they are using much more gas than they otherwise would - the taxpayer will have to pick up the bill. One needs to ask why half of their nuclear is offline at once - planned maintenance or breakdown from lack of investment?

The other meme doing the rounds is the one about EDF UK subsidising the French 4% price cap, but EDF UK has been making losses recently, it may well make a profit this year but nothing like the billions that are required to fund the French 4% price cap and EDF UK cannot hike their prices up over here above the UK price cap.

I see Gordon Brown has called for temporary nationalisation of the energy suppliers to presumably cap the price paid by consumers with the taxpayer or more likely borrowing (our grandchildren) picking up the tab as they will have to do with Covid. I can see some merits on this but long term nationalisation is not the answer imo. With every government department fighting over a finite pot of money, long term investment in infrastructure would inevitably be put off in favour of other priorities of the government of the day, plus of course you could have the likes of Grant Schapps, Chris Grayling or Nadine Dorries in charge of our energy supply which would be fun. You could nationalise BP I suppose but the same thing applies.

Targeting help seems the most reasonable solution at the moment, but if this price spike carries on long term, then gawd only knows what the answer is.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

If anything it shows the clear and almost total disconnect between Tory party members, who Tweedledum and Tweedlecomplete****ingidiot are talking to pretty much exclusively, and the wider public.

Yeah, no surprises there though eh. The same is true (and always has been) of the members of all political parties.

 

[nicko31]

EDF is an interesting one as they are in big trouble and about to be fully nationalised, they have lost 1bn a month over the last 6 months as half(?) of their nuclear capability is offline and they are using much more gas than they otherwise would - the taxpayer will have to pick up the bill. One needs to ask why half of their nuclear is offline at once - planned maintenance or breakdown from lack of investment?

The other meme doing the rounds is the one about EDF UK subsidising the French 4% price cap, but EDF UK has been making losses recently, it may well make a profit this year but nothing like the billions that are required to fund the French 4% price cap and EDF UK cannot hike their prices up over here above the UK price cap.

I see Gordon Brown has called for temporary nationalisation of the energy suppliers to presumably cap the price paid by consumers with the taxpayer or more likely borrowing (our grandchildren) picking up the tab as they will have to do with Covid. I can see some merits on this but long term nationalisation is not the answer imo. With every government department fighting over a finite pot of money, long term investment in infrastructure would inevitably be put off in favour of other priorities of the government of the day, plus of course you could have the likes of Grant Schapps, Chris Grayling or Nadine Dorries in charge of our energy supply which would be fun. You could nationalise BP I suppose but the same thing applies.

Targeting help seems the most reasonable solution at the moment, but if this price spike carries on long term, then gawd only knows what the answer is.

Interesting seems some of their nukes are being put offline as river water temps are getting to high during the drought / heatwave. Another reason to avoid this source of energy, the most expensive form of new energy available.

Its costing France a lot to subsidise energy, but £1BN per month actually doesn't seem that bad to save consumers and business. I'm sure the bill will go higher though, no cheap options

 

[LamieRobertson]

EDF is an interesting one as they are in big trouble and about to be fully nationalised, they have lost 1bn a month over the last 6 months as half(?) of their nuclear capability is offline and they are using much more gas than they otherwise would - the taxpayer will have to pick up the bill. One needs to ask why half of their nuclear is offline at once - planned maintenance or breakdown from lack of investment?

The other meme doing the rounds is the one about EDF UK subsidising the French 4% price cap, but EDF UK has been making losses recently, it may well make a profit this year but nothing like the billions that are required to fund the French 4% price cap and EDF UK cannot hike their prices up over here above the UK price cap.

I see Gordon Brown has called for temporary nationalisation of the energy suppliers to presumably cap the price paid by consumers with the taxpayer or more likely borrowing (our grandchildren) picking up the tab as they will have to do with Covid. I can see some merits on this but long term nationalisation is not the answer imo. With every government department fighting over a finite pot of money, long term investment in infrastructure would inevitably be put off in favour of other priorities of the government of the day, plus of course you could have the likes of Grant Schapps, Chris Grayling or Nadine Dorries in charge of our energy supply which would be fun. You could nationalise BP I suppose but the same thing applies.

Targeting help seems the most reasonable solution at the moment, but if this price spike carries on long term, then gawd only knows what the answer is.

…agreed and some of that discussed in the program I mentioned above …the competition in the market lest we forget brought us a period of low prices …perhaps too low..then of course this led to some companies being set up who’s business model was unsustainable..hence they were the first to fold…whilst not in favour of privatisation I think we do need some sort of energy policy that is enforceable by whatever colour of government…for example storage of gas…Centrica was allowed to selloff a fair chunk of this…the same should be the case over water…I read somewhere recently that no reservoirs have been built since 1991 despite population growth……water/energy basics of life aren’t they?

 

[beorhthelm]

And they are are doing the energy companies’ job for them by scaring people into signing up for inappropriate fixed rate deals. The Government should be stepping in to regulate these deals.

definately, regulator not doing enough. im pretty convinced the suppliers are auto-sending out fixed rates that are wholely inappropriate, no one would seriously commit to prices above even the highest current estmates. though might indicate where they expect prices to go.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

And my point is "why make that point?" when the real issue remains that our rises are considerably higher than those in the EU, even if one tweet has exaggerated the numbers?

Do you have any data to back that up ? Genuine question as I don’t really want to go down this black hole of people selectively using figures to back up a pre existing view.
All I could find were out of date figures illustrating the comparative cheapness of UK bills up to the end of last year;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/

https://www.euronews.com/next/amp/2...what-are-countries-doing-to-help-you-pay-them

https://amp.theguardian.com/busines...her-european-countries-tackling-energy-crisis

There are plenty of articles suggesting the Government could do more to mitigate the rises here but people seem to have created a tangent suggesting our bills are the highest to begin with and are reacting with outrage accordingly. I don’t know the answer.