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Could an ex PM be charged with War Crimes?



Dandyman

In London village.
This was the speach given by Robin Cook following his resignation from one of the post senior posts that can be held in any British government:

BBC NEWS | Politics | Cook's resignation speech

This is the first time for 20 years that I have addressed the House from the back benches.

I must confess that I had forgotten how much better the view is from here.

None of those 20 years were more enjoyable or more rewarding than the past two, in which I have had the immense privilege of serving this House as Leader of the House, which were made all the more enjoyable, Mr Speaker, by the opportunity of working closely with you.

It was frequently the necessity for me as Leader of the House to talk my way out of accusations that a statement had been preceded by a press interview.

On this occasion I can say with complete confidence that no press interview has been given before this statement.

I have chosen to address the House first on why I cannot support a war without international agreement or domestic support.

Backing Blair

The present Prime Minister is the most successful leader of the Labour party in my lifetime.

I hope that he will continue to be the leader of our party, and I hope that he will continue to be successful. I have no sympathy with, and I will give no comfort to, those who want to use this crisis to displace him.

I applaud the heroic efforts that the prime minister has made in trying to secure a second resolution.

I do not think that anybody could have done better than the foreign secretary in working to get support for a second resolution within the Security Council.

But the very intensity of those attempts underlines how important it was to succeed.

Now that those attempts have failed, we cannot pretend that getting a second resolution was of no importance.

French intransigence?

France has been at the receiving end of bucket loads of commentary in recent days.

It is not France alone that wants more time for inspections. Germany wants more time for inspections; Russia wants more time for inspections; indeed, at no time have we signed up even the minimum necessary to carry a second resolution.

We delude ourselves if we think that the degree of international hostility is all the result of President Chirac.

The reality is that Britain is being asked to embark on a war without agreement in any of the international bodies of which we are a leading partner - not NATO, not the European Union and, now, not the Security Council.

To end up in such diplomatic weakness is a serious reverse.

Only a year ago, we and the United States were part of a coalition against terrorism that was wider and more diverse than I would ever have imagined possible.

'Heavy price'

History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations that led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition.

The US can afford to go it alone, but Britain is not a superpower.

Our interests are best protected not by unilateral action but by multilateral agreement and a world order governed by rules.

Yet tonight the international partnerships most important to us are weakened: the European Union is divided; the Security Council is in stalemate.

Those are heavy casualties of a war in which a shot has yet to be fired.

I have heard some parallels between military action in these circumstances and the military action that we took in Kosovo. There was no doubt about the multilateral support that we had for the action that we took in Kosovo.

It was supported by NATO; it was supported by the European Union; it was supported by every single one of the seven neighbours in the region. France and Germany were our active allies.

It is precisely because we have none of that support in this case that it was all the more important to get agreement in the Security Council as the last hope of demonstrating international agreement.

Public doubts

The legal basis for our action in Kosovo was the need to respond to an urgent and compelling humanitarian crisis.

Our difficulty in getting support this time is that neither the international community nor the British public is persuaded that there is an urgent and compelling reason for this military action in Iraq.

The threshold for war should always be high.

None of us can predict the death toll of civilians from the forthcoming bombardment of Iraq, but the US warning of a bombing campaign that will "shock and awe" makes it likely that casualties will be numbered at least in the thousands.

I am confident that British servicemen and women will acquit themselves with professionalism and with courage. I hope that they all come back.

I hope that Saddam, even now, will quit Baghdad and avert war, but it is false to argue that only those who support war support our troops.

It is entirely legitimate to support our troops while seeking an alternative to the conflict that will put those troops at risk.

Nor is it fair to accuse those of us who want longer for inspections of not having an alternative strategy.

For four years as foreign secretary I was partly responsible for the western strategy of containment.

Over the past decade that strategy destroyed more weapons than in the Gulf war, dismantled Iraq's nuclear weapons programme and halted Saddam's medium and long-range missiles programmes.

Iraq's military strength is now less than half its size than at the time of the last Gulf war.

Threat questioned

Ironically, it is only because Iraq's military forces are so weak that we can even contemplate its invasion. Some advocates of conflict claim that Saddam's forces are so weak, so demoralised and so badly equipped that the war will be over in a few days.

We cannot base our military strategy on the assumption that Saddam is weak and at the same time justify pre-emptive action on the claim that he is a threat.

Iraq probably has no weapons of mass destruction in the commonly understood sense of the term - namely a credible device capable of being delivered against a strategic city target.

It probably still has biological toxins and battlefield chemical munitions, but it has had them since the 1980s when US companies sold Saddam anthrax agents and the then British Government approved chemical and munitions factories.

Why is it now so urgent that we should take military action to disarm a military capacity that has been there for 20 years, and which we helped to create?

Why is it necessary to resort to war this week, while Saddam's ambition to complete his weapons programme is blocked by the presence of UN inspectors?

Israeli breaches

Only a couple of weeks ago, Hans Blix told the Security Council that the key remaining disarmament tasks could be completed within months.

I have heard it said that Iraq has had not months but 12 years in which to complete disarmament, and that our patience is exhausted.

Yet it is more than 30 years since resolution 242 called on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

We do not express the same impatience with the persistent refusal of Israel to comply.

I welcome the strong personal commitment that the prime minister has given to middle east peace, but Britain's positive role in the middle east does not redress the strong sense of injustice throughout the Muslim world at what it sees as one rule for the allies of the US and another rule for the rest.

Nor is our credibility helped by the appearance that our partners in Washington are less interested in disarmament than they are in regime change in Iraq.

That explains why any evidence that inspections may be showing progress is greeted in Washington not with satisfaction but with consternation: it reduces the case for war.

Presidential differences

What has come to trouble me most over past weeks is the suspicion that if the hanging chads in Florida had gone the other way and Al Gore had been elected, we would not now be about to commit British troops.

The longer that I have served in this place, the greater the respect I have for the good sense and collective wisdom of the British people.

On Iraq, I believe that the prevailing mood of the British people is sound. They do not doubt that Saddam is a brutal dictator, but they are not persuaded that he is a clear and present danger to Britain.

They want inspections to be given a chance, and they suspect that they are being pushed too quickly into conflict by a US Administration with an agenda of its own.

Above all, they are uneasy at Britain going out on a limb on a military adventure without a broader international coalition and against the hostility of many of our traditional allies.

From the start of the present crisis, I have insisted, as Leader of the House, on the right of this place to vote on whether Britain should go to war.

It has been a favourite theme of commentators that this House no longer occupies a central role in British politics.

Nothing could better demonstrate that they are wrong than for this House to stop the commitment of troops in a war that has neither international agreement nor domestic support.

I intend to join those tomorrow night who will vote against military action now. It is for that reason, and for that reason alone, and with a heavy heart, that I resign from the government.

 




Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
70,546
Blair knows that the real truth will never be revealed during his lifetime and perhaps not for another 100 years after that.

Maybe. Maybe not. But Blair is not in charge of news management any more. There will doubtless be many conflicting stories wheedled out during the course of the Inquiry, and hopefully enough of these people will trip themselves up to reveal an approximation of the truth. Or rather will confirm what a very large chunk of the population know damn well - that they were lied to.
 


Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
70,546
Robin Cook, a member of the cabinet and one who opposed Blair's Iraq plans, also died while out walking. mmmmmm

Not forgetting the pathetic attempted smears on leading opponents of the war; Robert Del Naja out of Massive Attack (kiddie porn), Ms. Dynamite (bad mother), George Galloway (in the pay of Saddam Hussein and embezzling money from his own charity)


In 2003, Del Naja was arrested and questioned "in connection with allegations of the possession of class A drugs and Internet pornography offences," as a part of Operation Ore, a nation-wide crackdown on child pornography. Del Naja never admitted to the crime, saying that he has never looked at child pornography in his life, and some fans have claimed that the government was running a smear campaign on him for his views on the war in Iraq. He was released on bail after six hours in jail.

In 1998 Galloway founded the Mariam Appeal, intended "to campaign against sanctions on Iraq which are having disastrous effects on the ordinary people of Iraq". The campaign was named after Mariam Hamza, a child flown by the fund from Iraq to Britain to receive treatment for leukaemia. The intention was to raise awareness of the suffering and death of hundreds of thousands of other Iraqi children due to poor health conditions and lack of suitable medicines and facilities, and to campaign for the lifting of the Iraq sanctions that many maintained were responsible for that situation.

The fund received scrutiny during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, after a complaint that Galloway used some of the donation money to pay his travel expenses.[91] Galloway said that the expenses were incurred in his capacity as the Appeal's chairman. Although the Mariam Appeal was never a registered charity and never intended to be such, it was investigated by the Charity Commission. The report of this year-long inquiry, published in June 2004,[92] found that the Mariam Appeal was doing charitable work (and so ought to have registered with them), but did not substantiate allegations that any funds had been misused.
 
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clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,478
Fortunately for Blair a potential star witness in the Iraq Inquiry , Dr David Kelly is dead , so all the misinformation that was given at the time can no longer be corroborated by an individual with first hand experience.

I'm not suggesting you are doing so here, but there is a lot of mistaken facts written about Kelly.

Even that arch conspiricist and stadium hating Member of Parliament for Lewes doesn't think the Government bumped him off.

Kelly thought thought that WMD did exist. He may have disagreed with the report being "sexed up" based on the available evidence at the time, but he was convinced Saddam was hiding something. He just wanted more time to find out.

Both Kelly and the Government were proved to be wrong.

Somehow out of that he is often represented as being in possession of knowledge (or lack of) that would embarress the Government.

Frankly it was completely the opposite.
 
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Dick Knights Mumm

Take me Home Falmer Road
Jul 5, 2003
19,626
Hither and Thither
This is it, it was NOT clear at the time that the UK faced no threat, The USA had been attacked twice, sept 11 and the anthrax attacks. It was reasonable to assume the worst and it still is. Therefor they did not behave illeagally.

Trying to rewrite history will do you little good.

that sounds really weak.
 




beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,392
Not forgetting the pathetic attempted smears on leading opponents of the war; Robert Del Naja out of Massive Attack (kiddie porn), Ms. Dynamite (bad mother), George Galloway (in the pay of Saddam Hussein and embezzling money from his own charity)

i've missed this one... are you seriously trying to tell me that some people believe the government felt threatened by a couple of popstars enough to try to smear them? got to love paranoid conspiracy, t'internet wouldnt be the same with out.

:lolol:
 


GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
46,983
Gloucester
How's he a criminal? Someone had to get rid of Saddam eventually and are any wars "just" wars?

Regime change a reason for going to war? So why the f*** aren't we fighting in Zimbabwe, Burma, Cambodia and North Korea (to name but a few). Saddam was a shite, but we shouldn't have gone into Iraq on the false pretence of Weapons of Mass Destruction.
(Should have finished the bastard off in '91, though, when there was good cause, but the Yanks (under the intrepid leadership if George Bush, chickened out).
 


clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,478
i've missed this one... are you seriously trying to tell me that some people believe the government felt threatened by a couple of popstars enough to try to smear them? got to love paranoid conspiracy, t'internet wouldnt be the same with out.

:lolol:

Well, there is that story about the Beatles and "secret agent" Elvis.

He even had the pictures to prove it.
 






drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,105
Burgess Hill
i've missed this one... are you seriously trying to tell me that some people believe the government felt threatened by a couple of popstars enough to try to smear them? got to love paranoid conspiracy, t'internet wouldnt be the same with out.

:lolol:

If you don't believe what they say that makes you a part of the consipiracy. We all now know you can't be trusted.!!!!! Damn, thinking about it, I must be part of the conspiracy as well. Have we met at any of the conspiracy party meetings or is it a secret!!!!!!!

Regime change a reason for going to war? So why the f*** aren't we fighting in Zimbabwe, Burma, Cambodia and North Korea (to name but a few). Saddam was a shite, but we shouldn't have gone into Iraq on the false pretence of Weapons of Mass Destruction.
(Should have finished the bastard off in '91, though, when there was good cause, but the Yanks (under the intrepid leadership if George Bush, chickened out).

It wasn't a false pretence unless you have a degree in the science of hindsight! Intelligence from various sources suggested there was. Even in the inquiry today, they are only saying that weapons might have been disassembled and that they might not have the capability to use them. If someone pointed a gun at you and said it might be loaded, would you take the chance?
 


clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,478
If you don't believe what they say that makes you a part of the consipiracy. We all now know you can't be trusted.!!!!! Damn, thinking about it, I must be part of the conspiracy as well. Have we met at any of the conspiracy party meetings or is it a secret!!!!!!!



It wasn't a false pretence unless you have a degree in the science of hindsight! Intelligence from various sources suggested there was. Even in the inquiry today, they are only saying that weapons might have been disassembled and that they might not have the capability to use them. If someone pointed a gun at you and said it might be loaded, would you take the chance?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so is foresight.

At the end of the day it wasn't anything to do with weapons of mass destruction and I'm not going to suggest it was oil.

The Republicans out of power were quite open about finishing off business down there so it's hardly a conspiracy theory.

All they needed politically was a reason to do so. They almost had one.

Evidence comes in from all over the place all of the time, the trick is to decide whether it is accurate or not. I'd love to see all the potential threats more plausible that the Iraq ones that never lead to war.

If governments acted on them all of the time, the world would be in a perpetual state of war.
 
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looney

Banned
Jul 7, 2003
15,652
Try to make intelligent and factual arguments. The attack on the Trade Towers was masterminded and carried out by Saudis not Iraqis. Saddam's regime was a secular one with no connection to those attacks. There is not a shred of evidence that Saddam had any connection with Islamist terrorists. Indeed the previous support shown by the Yanks toward Saddam during his war with Iran rather proves the point.

There was no evidence that the UK faced a threat from Iraq, hence Robin Cook's resignation as Foreign Secretary and his subsequent speach in the House of Commons.


You missed my point. The attacks showed that rogue states could project terrorism, Saddam supported terror Groups in The West Bank and Gaza, it really isn't difficult to see why people were not prepared to Give saddam the benefit of the doubt considering his gamesmanship, unless you have a track record of Hating America and the west.
 


looney

Banned
Jul 7, 2003
15,652
Blair is a war criminal, pure and simple. He wasn't fooling the million people who marched through London to protest against the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq. He wasn't even fooling the Houses of Parliament, though with a few honourable exceptions, the gutless wonder MPs rolled over to maintain the fiddled-expenses lifestyle they'd become accustomed to. Coalition Of The Willing, my arse. Did you see the face on that Spanish PM? They must have been blackmailing him with goat-shagging porno shots for him to sign up to 'the willing'. And bombings in Spain and England were a direct result of their being willing accomplices to this war crime. Blood on their hands. Fact.



Over 98% of the population did not march, Parliament ended up backing Blair. The bombings in the UK were on the Agenda anyway, why did they try to bomb Germany? Sept 11 was before Iraq.

Islamic exstremists have been opperating in the UK for decades quietly recruiting and training. If anything Iraq flushed em out, better sooner than later,

Even today the Governments been caught funding exstremist schools in the UK, thank f*** this lot will be gone soon enough.
 


Mr Blunt

New member
Apr 21, 2008
254
Brighton
You missed my point. The attacks showed that rogue states could project terrorism, Saddam supported terror Groups in The West Bank and Gaza, it really isn't difficult to see why people were not prepared to Give saddam the benefit of the doubt considering his gamesmanship, unless you have a track record of Hating America and the west.

Good post, totally agree with this view.
 




Garry Nelson's Left Foot

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
13,170
tokyo
I imagine it's too early to draw any conclusions after only two days of an inquiry that's expected to last a year. Going on the following articles it seems that nothing that's been said so far will dramatically change a person's previously held position. Hopefully by the end we'll be able to say conclusively one way or the other(although I doubt it). It's a real shame there's not a top legal expert on the panel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/24/iraq-war-chilcot-inquiry

Chilcot Iraq Inquiry: Britain 'knew Saddam Hussein had destroyed WMD' - Times Online

BBC News - Iraq inquiry told of 'clear' threat from Saddam Hussein

Iraq Inquiry: British officials discussed regime change two years before war - Telegraph
 


Garry Nelson's Left Foot

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
13,170
tokyo
It wasn't a false pretence unless you have a degree in the science of hindsight! Intelligence from various sources suggested there was. Even in the inquiry today, they are only saying that weapons might have been disassembled and that they might not have the capability to use them. If someone pointed a gun at you and said it might be loaded, would you take the chance?


Perhaps a better analogy would be that you've heard someone in another town might have a gun and might in the future use it, possibly on you. Would you burn the town to the ground in an attempt to find his gun and to stop him using it?
 


You missed my point. The attacks showed that rogue states could project terrorism, Saddam supported terror Groups in The West Bank and Gaza, it really isn't difficult to see why people were not prepared to Give saddam the benefit of the doubt considering his gamesmanship, unless you have a track record of Hating America and the west.

Saddam's supposed support for people in the west bank is not any evidence of threat to either the us or the uk. There was no direct threat to either the us or the uk therefore a pre-emptive war was and is illegal under international law.

FACT.
 


brightonlass2009

Sports sports sports!
.

Who announced this then? You seem to categorically state that the weapons had been dismantled. Nobody knew that, except of course you. It was suggested in a report that they may have been disassembled. READ IT CAREFULLY. The crucial word is ' may'. It was also suggested that he may not have the warheads to deliver the weapons. Again, you need to understand the meaning of the word 'may'.

Fact is, we couldn't know for sure. Could we take the risk. What if he had attacked Israel and they had responded with their own weapon of mass destruction.

I'm no great fan of Blair or Brown for that matter but they had to make a judgement call. I sometimes wonder what some of you lot on NSC would have done 70 years ago. We weren't attacked by Hitler but are you suggesting we should have declared neutrality and hope he didn't cross the Channel? Maybe if we had, we could have turned a blind eye to his ethnic cleansing?

There are the anti Blair/New Labour/Brown et al brigade who would try and pin anything and everything on them.

Facts are that for 10 years Saddam had not just been sticking two fingers up at the world, he had been breaking sanctions and disrupting weapons inspections. He had been murdering scores of his own people, for example the Kurds.

There are many who also aren't interested in the inquiry as they have already jumped to their own conclusions and won't accept anything that doesn't concur with that.


They knew there were no weapons, they were told before the actual attack, which has come out in the enquiry.
Also, the only reason Saddam Hussain would have had WMD's was because the American and British Government's were giving him the materials to build them in the 1980s. Hence the situation was our faults anyway.

And besides, this whole thing of we had to take a risk. Why did we? Regardless of whether there were WMD's, the Iraqi regime would not have had the capabilities to build anything substantial, so they would not have been able to attack the western world anyway. Not that it was the real reason for the attack. So the idea that attacking was for 'protection' is not a valid one anyway.
 




thejackal

Throbbing Member
Oct 22, 2008
1,150
Brighthelmstone
Anyone with half a brain can see through the propaganda, surely?

Read this: "The Strange Death of Dr Kelly" by our very own Norman Baker (ahem!), or: "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies. Both extremely well researched books.

There never was any threat from Saddam, and we know it.

Equally, even if there had been a threat, there were other, far more deserving cases for 'Regime Change', were it legal to just go in and depose the leaders of countries that we disagree with. Problem is, doing that is a war crime, plain and simple. It is, in fact, and stated very clearly at the Nuremberg Trials the SUPREME WAR CRIME.

Blair knew he was lying to Parliament and the British public, and the official record shows this clearly.

Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, it has happened, but, as noted, normally the 'victors' don't have to worry about this. We will never hand him over to the Hague, but maybe the Tories will put him through the mill here. I doubt it.

From "WAR CRIMES LAW APPLIES TO U.S. TOO" by Walter J. Rockler

As a primary source of international law, the judgment of the Nuremberg Tribunal in the 1945-1946 case of the major Nazi war criminals is plain and clear. Our leaders often invoke and praise that judgment, but obviously have not read it. The International Court declared:

"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime, it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

At Nuremberg, the United States and Britain pressed the prosecution of Nazi leaders for planning and initiating aggressive war. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, the head of the American prosecution staff, asserted "that launching a war of aggression is a crime and that no political or economic situation can justify it." He also declared that "if certain acts in violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."
 
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If Tony Blair was to be put on trial I would love it,love it,what a great day that would be for the oxymoron that is British justice,can you imagine how satisfying it would be to see his ugly c*nt of a wife queing outside the scrubs with all the other shit waiting to pass crack onto their hubbies?,
marvellous.
 


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