And by all accounts, about 90% if those season ticket holders died a long time ago but miraculously keep turning up for games and, more importantly, keep renewing!!
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[Albion] Conclusions from the ESL fiasco .......
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And by all accounts, about 90% if those season ticket holders died a long time ago but miraculously keep turning up for games and, more importantly, keep renewing!!
clapham_gull
Legacy Fan
- Aug 20, 2003
- 25,800
I presume you are basing that on the Covid analysis where they were looking at control the numbers returning to games by postcode ?
You have to be careful using postcodes like that. The reality is you could live nearer the ground without an L postcode that someone who did since The Wirral doesn't have an L postcode.
It all goes back to the 1972 Local Government Act when certain places were absorbed into metropolitan areas but retained their historic post codes. To add to the confusion the Post Office (internally) still use the historic postal addresses and not the actual geographic ones.
I had an on-going debate on Twitter (now deleted) with a resident of East Barnet who refused to believe he lived in London. He was moaning that Barnet Hospital had been described as a London one.
This wasn't something historic he was clinging onto, he genuinely believed he lived in Hertfordshire. He also refused to believe that Croydon wasn't in Surrey.
His argument was purely based on postcodes and the fact that the Post Office (on their website) list their Croydon post office address as "Surrey" which is basically the local "sorting area" and NOT the "county" the post office is geographically located in.
Even when asked who he paid his council tax to, he wasn't budging. Bless.
Back to Liverpool, Southport is in Merseyside and hasn't got an L postcode either. All the analysis concludes is that Everton fans probably live nearer the ground, but most Liverpool fans come from a wider area in the Merseyside region.
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Seagull1989
Well-known member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 1,204
This is probably far fetched but the idea that when the Premier League meet to discuss new rules, there should be 2 forums for a new role to pass. The current club voting system to remain in place and a separate forum of fans representing their respective clubs . The rules would need a majority vote in both forums to pass.
Perfidious Albion
Well-known member
I am sure that the practicalities of changing an established business ownership model to something like the German system are very complex , more than most people understand. But something has to be done if our beloved game is not to disappear in corporate greed and international politics.
Let’s hope that those in control are able to see the need from this, and at least adjust the system to make it better.
Let’s hope that those in control are able to see the need from this, and at least adjust the system to make it better.
Randy McNob
> > > > > > Cardiff > > > > >
- Jun 13, 2020
- 4,714
I agree we should implement the German model but it's a non starter, no chance with a government which has corporate greed as a cornerstone principle
Dave the OAP
Well-known member
If this was taken to the logical conclusion, would the 235million members of the Manchester United Chinese supporters club each get a vote? Or the 100million Chinese members of the Liverpool supporters club?
This game is now so worldwide that local representation is not representative of the fan base for these clubs. That is why there wa so much excitement around the world for the ESL and so much anti ESL by the local fans groups in the UK.
The teams are no longer representing Manchester or Liverpool or parts of London for their local fans, they are playing for a global brand.
I think this pandemic has shown that “ local fans “ in the stadium are an irrelevance when you are sat in your front room in Singapore. They ever pipe in crowd noises so what is the point of fans? They don’t care... that is why these owners referred to “ legacy fans” and the need to encourage “ new” fans to replace them...I.e. ones not based locally!
ESL will be back
blue-shifted
Banned
Which is why we need to be taking this opportunity to shore up the defences
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Yes, and that is why it is a war for the identities of our clubs. There is no right and wrong on this issue. It is simply a grab by armchair supporters abetted by the owners. As a match going fan I don’t care about the rationale of the other side, the global brand or their numbers. I will simply support any efforts to defeat them because these clubs do represent their local communities no matter what the businessmen tell us.
Ecosse Exile
New member
I think this model would be good for discussions regarding league rule changes, I. E. Should we get rid of VAR etc. But i don't see what it would have been able to do to stop a breakaway, they clearly didn't care about Premier League's existing rules stating they cannot compete in any other competition without consent from the Premier League.
I like the idea of the German model but i feel that too is open to exploitation, 50% + 1 vote doesn't take a hell of a lot of money to buy 1 vote. This could work however if you had to have a higher majority to vote anything through such as 75% your greedy owners would never be able to buy 50% of the fans vote. Maybe this is already the case in Germany i don't know enough about it.
Someone stated that the German clubs are 50% owned by companies such as Volkswagen, Bayer and Allianz, maybe this is what makes it work, companies are far less likely to support anything that could be potentially damaging to their brand, rather than individuals like the Glazers who really couldn't give a shit what Man United fans think of them as they rarely set foot anywhere near Manchester anyway. However in the case of the Glazers, its a bit more tricky, i could be wrong but as far as i am aware Joe Glazer has no board to answer to, he owns something like 83% of Manchester United plus sports teams and shopping malls across America, none of the companies who rent retail space in his malls are likely to say, hey, were pulling out because you're a greedy prick and you're ruining Man United.
Yes, absolutely. As I wrote earlier in this very thread...
Barcelona's ESL announcement on Facecook had more happy faces, than angry iirc.
On a related theme, match-going fans (rightly) complain about away fixtures being moved to inconvenient KO times, but often it's a few thousand away fans being inconvenienced, when the super clubs and broadcasters are thinking about their global audience measured in 100s of millions.
Legacy fans are literally there to create some live ambience and colour in the stands.
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 72,158
We should be paid Equity rates for extras really
father_and_son
Well-known member
The complexity would come in where the corporate structure is such that something has been hidden or sidelined to minimise (avoid) tax or dodge FFP.
There are lots of accounting/law firms that specialise in setting up and untangling these arrangements and part of any restructure would be to stop assets and liabilities being hidden from FA, EPL, UEFA and dodging FFP. Debatable how much you interfer with the tax related matters but the others have to be eliminated if you are restructuring clubs to be transparent, fair and accountable.
True.
SockMonster
Well-known member
"The Champions League format is old and only interesting from the quarter-finals onwards," said Perez.
"This format clearly doesn't work, so we thought that we could have a format where the most important teams in Europe play against each other from the very beginning of the season."
This quote from Real Madrid president for me sums up the disconnect between the so called big clubs and there owners/Chairmen and the rest of the footballing world. Do fans of Ajax or Legia Warsaw or Besiktas or Salzburg or whoever else might find themselves playing in europe, find the early rounds uninteresting. No. Being a fan is about the thrill of hope and expectation. The possibility that as a smaller club you might get promoted, win a cup, get the chance to play one of the bigger sides and maybe one day play in Europe and who knows...maybe get to play against Barcelona or Bayern Munich or Milan. The ESL was the beginning of the death of that dream.
"This format clearly doesn't work, so we thought that we could have a format where the most important teams in Europe play against each other from the very beginning of the season."
This quote from Real Madrid president for me sums up the disconnect between the so called big clubs and there owners/Chairmen and the rest of the footballing world. Do fans of Ajax or Legia Warsaw or Besiktas or Salzburg or whoever else might find themselves playing in europe, find the early rounds uninteresting. No. Being a fan is about the thrill of hope and expectation. The possibility that as a smaller club you might get promoted, win a cup, get the chance to play one of the bigger sides and maybe one day play in Europe and who knows...maybe get to play against Barcelona or Bayern Munich or Milan. The ESL was the beginning of the death of that dream.
Aside form the appalling closed-shop format and the breathtaking arrogance and greed of the 'founders' that shows a complete lack of understanding of everything that brings meaning and purpose to football, the worst thing about the ESL concept was the name.
European Super League?! What a bunch of cocks.
Every time I heard it mentioned I couldn't stop thinking of the scene in Extras where Ross Kemp earnestly claims that SAS stands for 'Super Army Soldiers.'
European Super League?! What a bunch of cocks.
Every time I heard it mentioned I couldn't stop thinking of the scene in Extras where Ross Kemp earnestly claims that SAS stands for 'Super Army Soldiers.'
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 12,004
Although I hate to say it, I agreed with Steve Parish's comments on UEFA pandering to the big clubs in the existing set up.
Why should our 3rd and 4th clubs qualify to a later stage of the competition than the Champions of many of the other European leagues.
The Champions of every European league should qualify by right. 2nd place and below should enter qualify rounds on an equal footing.
Excellent point. I doubt very many people below board level at any PL club don't experience the connection between the club and the community. The clubs are global brands and even at Brighton we have seen the interest from abroad with some of our players. It's unrealistic to expect clubs, especially the top ones, to ignore the global audience and revenue opportunities however all clubs are entrenched in the history and DNA of their communities. Any club that tramples over that just to grab the global cash might as well be told to shut up shop and relocate to Asia or wherever. Incidentally, what the armchair global fan should realise is that the clubs do NOTHING to support the community local to the fan. They simply take the revenue. I don't begrudge some fella in China from being obsessed with Man U or Liverpool but they should realise that the club they support owes it's existence to the people local to the club. If they really respected that concept, the history and tradition of football in Europe then they should also want the club to do the right thing by the local fans and community first. Equally, if the clubs want to become a global brand then act in accord and support the communities globally just as other businesses with a global presence do.
I dont know if true but read Manchester Utd have 350m members in China and Liverpool have 100m.. That is a mighty big potential income to exploit
Just imagine how many shirts they would sell if Chinese player played for them. Maybe should ask Barber how many we have
Just imagine how many shirts they would sell if Chinese player played for them. Maybe should ask Barber how many we have
I enjoyed very much seeing certain club owners grovelling about this debacle.
There are some rather sweeping views on football, as a piece, in the media and on NSC, though. It teminds me a bit about arguments that were had in the 70s about music (is the biggest seller the best artist? What of integrity and 'selling out'? Is an artist finished once they become successful? Etc.).
It's all bullshit, really. As a fan of the Comast Angels, I'd go and see the Comsat Angels. I'm not going to cry because U2 went on to make mega bucks, while poor old Stephen Fellows is scratching around in Sheffield still. I don't particularly resent tens of thousands of 'normals' whooping in a stadium while Dua Lipa mimes onstage.
So I'm certainly not going to cry if the likes of Arsenal get to play in the CL every year for 20 years while the Albion played at Withdean. I'll keep watching my team because that's what I want to do. I don't think there is any special virtue in it, and I'm certainly not ging to knock my mate who has has a season ticket at The Emirates for years.
And I think I need to divest myself of the idea there is anything especially virtuous about following the Albion. That won't stop me feeling smug or acting superior about it, of course. Hypocrisy and winding up supporters of other clubs (especially Palarse and ManU) is all part of the panto of football.
And, yes, the Albion has provided me with mountains of personal, family, emotional, sentimental, drunken, euphoric and other experiences that are part of the narrative of my life.....
But also....living outside of a dictatorship permits societies to evolve and we have within that the phenomenon of football which segues between goalposts for jumpers and corporate- (even state)- owned businesses, with everything in between, providing different types of infrastructure in different countries and even within single countries. It is what it is. And it works. Some clubs thrive, others die. Some fight and win, others give up. That's life.
It works because it exists and we still love it. Not everyone, sure, not all the time, certainly, and not all of it all the time, definitely.
But outside of dictatorships things survive because they generally work and things change and evolve (or die) if they don't.
In among all that we have a minority of football clubs owned by people whose aim is not to achieve glory for their club, but to use the club as a business (ManU, Newcastle, and other less successful owners) a PR vehicle and a means of humanizing themselves in the eyes of a suspicious market (Citeh) or a vehicle for vainglory (old school industrial magnate owners, mostly long gone, like Peter Swales).
I don't think it is helpful to conflate everything. Yes some owners are not in it just for the glory. But all owners must run their club in such a way that the club doesn't go bust, or jeopardize the general finances of the owner. So owners must seek ways to make it pay. The extent to which this becomes their individual focus depends on their circumstances and their goals.
Does anyone think that Tony Bloom will spend any money, with no concern, in the pursuit of glory? Of course not. Does anyone think that the Glazers should close down the machinery that maintains the fan base they have accumulated in China and lose the associated income? Well, plenty seem to think so. Politics of envy, I'm afraid. So we have to accept that all clubs operate within the landscape. Some do it well, some don't. Some play by the rules, others don't. The latter, of course, should be resisted.
Some clubs have an unfair advantage because their owner is prepared to give parts of a vast fortune to the club in excess of the club's earning power (Citeh). Other simply have insane earning power owing to having a global brand and, unlike Jagger and Madonna, the club is never going to get old fat and boring all the while there is a conveyor belt of young players to singe (ManU).
These 'lucky' clubs are few and far between and are each unique.
So of course, given their ownership circumstances and agendas, some clubs will try to steal the game if the outcome is more of what they want (whether it be glory or simply income).
If the football governance were to take this on board, recognise that there are agendas, that they may be legal but that not all are best for the game, then it may be possible to tweak the current set up so it doesn't eat itself, as it would have done had the 12 pirates gone ahead and flown the Jolly Roger. This means being honest and anticipating that with certain agendas certain clubs will do certain things that favour themselves at the expense of others - and mitigate against his by rule and infrastructure changes.
Sadly I'm not seeing any great leadership emerging here from FIFA or EUFA, and of course they are tainted by their own perverse agendas, especially FIFA, which has simply operated as a vehicle for graft and personal enrichment of untouchables such as Blatter. So, what then?
The best hope I think is the EPL owner 'group'. I would like to see a larger owner group that includes the championship clubs (with entry and exit from the group by relegation to and promotion from tier 3 - I wouldn't extend the 'group' to tier 3 or it would start to be dominated by clubs with the lowest income and fan base, a bit like guaranteeing the Comsat Angels a spot on TOTP every week, for older readers/liteners).
The role of the owner group would be rather like a board of goveners. Football will already have mountains of articles of association etc. What is required is actually quite simple: rules that prevent clubs quitting the pyramid and creating private leagues, and rules that prevent clubs spending more than a set amount on players and salaries.
Anything else, in my view, will undermine change. That includes onerous salary and transfer caps, 'drafts' and forcing clubs to hand control to fans. The latter could be encouraged, but it isn't a straightforward business to impose a German style system on football. And of course all of this has to be underaken globally. Restricting the income of the UK's 'elite' clubs would be counter productive if the rest of the world carried on regardless. So concensus is needed.
Well, if reports that some of Europe's elite are billions in debt are correct, perhaps some sort of concensus could be reached sooner rather than later.
In the meantime....what a strange week. If the likes of Glazer tries a power and money grab in the future, hopefully the present experience will have generated some herd immunity among the rest of football. I'm optimistic that it has.
There are some rather sweeping views on football, as a piece, in the media and on NSC, though. It teminds me a bit about arguments that were had in the 70s about music (is the biggest seller the best artist? What of integrity and 'selling out'? Is an artist finished once they become successful? Etc.).
It's all bullshit, really. As a fan of the Comast Angels, I'd go and see the Comsat Angels. I'm not going to cry because U2 went on to make mega bucks, while poor old Stephen Fellows is scratching around in Sheffield still. I don't particularly resent tens of thousands of 'normals' whooping in a stadium while Dua Lipa mimes onstage.
So I'm certainly not going to cry if the likes of Arsenal get to play in the CL every year for 20 years while the Albion played at Withdean. I'll keep watching my team because that's what I want to do. I don't think there is any special virtue in it, and I'm certainly not ging to knock my mate who has has a season ticket at The Emirates for years.
And I think I need to divest myself of the idea there is anything especially virtuous about following the Albion. That won't stop me feeling smug or acting superior about it, of course. Hypocrisy and winding up supporters of other clubs (especially Palarse and ManU) is all part of the panto of football.
And, yes, the Albion has provided me with mountains of personal, family, emotional, sentimental, drunken, euphoric and other experiences that are part of the narrative of my life.....
But also....living outside of a dictatorship permits societies to evolve and we have within that the phenomenon of football which segues between goalposts for jumpers and corporate- (even state)- owned businesses, with everything in between, providing different types of infrastructure in different countries and even within single countries. It is what it is. And it works. Some clubs thrive, others die. Some fight and win, others give up. That's life.
It works because it exists and we still love it. Not everyone, sure, not all the time, certainly, and not all of it all the time, definitely.
But outside of dictatorships things survive because they generally work and things change and evolve (or die) if they don't.
In among all that we have a minority of football clubs owned by people whose aim is not to achieve glory for their club, but to use the club as a business (ManU, Newcastle, and other less successful owners) a PR vehicle and a means of humanizing themselves in the eyes of a suspicious market (Citeh) or a vehicle for vainglory (old school industrial magnate owners, mostly long gone, like Peter Swales).
I don't think it is helpful to conflate everything. Yes some owners are not in it just for the glory. But all owners must run their club in such a way that the club doesn't go bust, or jeopardize the general finances of the owner. So owners must seek ways to make it pay. The extent to which this becomes their individual focus depends on their circumstances and their goals.
Does anyone think that Tony Bloom will spend any money, with no concern, in the pursuit of glory? Of course not. Does anyone think that the Glazers should close down the machinery that maintains the fan base they have accumulated in China and lose the associated income? Well, plenty seem to think so. Politics of envy, I'm afraid. So we have to accept that all clubs operate within the landscape. Some do it well, some don't. Some play by the rules, others don't. The latter, of course, should be resisted.
Some clubs have an unfair advantage because their owner is prepared to give parts of a vast fortune to the club in excess of the club's earning power (Citeh). Other simply have insane earning power owing to having a global brand and, unlike Jagger and Madonna, the club is never going to get old fat and boring all the while there is a conveyor belt of young players to singe (ManU).
These 'lucky' clubs are few and far between and are each unique.
So of course, given their ownership circumstances and agendas, some clubs will try to steal the game if the outcome is more of what they want (whether it be glory or simply income).
If the football governance were to take this on board, recognise that there are agendas, that they may be legal but that not all are best for the game, then it may be possible to tweak the current set up so it doesn't eat itself, as it would have done had the 12 pirates gone ahead and flown the Jolly Roger. This means being honest and anticipating that with certain agendas certain clubs will do certain things that favour themselves at the expense of others - and mitigate against his by rule and infrastructure changes.
Sadly I'm not seeing any great leadership emerging here from FIFA or EUFA, and of course they are tainted by their own perverse agendas, especially FIFA, which has simply operated as a vehicle for graft and personal enrichment of untouchables such as Blatter. So, what then?
The best hope I think is the EPL owner 'group'. I would like to see a larger owner group that includes the championship clubs (with entry and exit from the group by relegation to and promotion from tier 3 - I wouldn't extend the 'group' to tier 3 or it would start to be dominated by clubs with the lowest income and fan base, a bit like guaranteeing the Comsat Angels a spot on TOTP every week, for older readers/liteners).
The role of the owner group would be rather like a board of goveners. Football will already have mountains of articles of association etc. What is required is actually quite simple: rules that prevent clubs quitting the pyramid and creating private leagues, and rules that prevent clubs spending more than a set amount on players and salaries.
Anything else, in my view, will undermine change. That includes onerous salary and transfer caps, 'drafts' and forcing clubs to hand control to fans. The latter could be encouraged, but it isn't a straightforward business to impose a German style system on football. And of course all of this has to be underaken globally. Restricting the income of the UK's 'elite' clubs would be counter productive if the rest of the world carried on regardless. So concensus is needed.
Well, if reports that some of Europe's elite are billions in debt are correct, perhaps some sort of concensus could be reached sooner rather than later.
In the meantime....what a strange week. If the likes of Glazer tries a power and money grab in the future, hopefully the present experience will have generated some herd immunity among the rest of football. I'm optimistic that it has.