[Politics] Brighton Pavilion, Labour candidate - who to vote for?

[aolstudios]

The change being that Labour is finally ridding itself of the anti semites who’d rather be “ideologically correct” than in power.

If only Cameron had done the same with the ERG.

This.
Both points

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Isn’t the authenticity of the MP to be decided by the constituency at the ballot box?

I don’t have an issue but I guess it would have saved the UK from Boris.

The problem with that method comes back to 'pin a rosette of (pick your colour of choice) on a (pick you animal of choice) and the candidate still gets voted in despite having next to no knowledge of local issues.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The problem with that method comes back to 'pin a rosette of (pick your colour of choice) on a (pick you animal of choice) and the candidate still gets voted in despite having next to no knowledge of local issues.

No system will be perfect. Having a rule which says candidates have to live in the area for, say 5 years, will discriminate against well meaning people who temporarily have to move way for genuine reasons.

You can of course join the local party and influence selection.

 

[chickens]

Couldn't your description of Tom Gray and Eddie Izzard as 'two activists, driven by single issue politics' also be applied to Sian Berry and Tom Gray?

I also find the festishisation of Rory Stewart strange. He's already shown us what he would do in power: Rory Stewart's votes in parliament difficult to think how you could see that and want more of the same over a candidate from Labour. But I suppose he does come across an intelligent and personable on a podcast.

Voting records have been covered in depth on the podcast you mention. You can only truly rely on voting records where there was a free vote to attack a candidate’s past, though all sides use voting history as a stick to beat other politicians with.

A political party in government has collective responsibility, you can’t go against the leadership if you’re being whipped and hold any form of responsible position within it, the voting record does not necessarily reflect how an individual would vote given a free vote.

His views are certainly not mine on many subjects, and anyone who’s been in a Conservative government certainly bears partial responsibility for our current predicament, but voting record has to be set against whether the issue was whipped.

Historically, the whip was used infrequently, modern governments use the whip pretty much constantly.

I’d certainly have him back in charge of our prisons like a shot.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There were, are and always will be two biological sexes. Please do ban me if stating facts is offensive to you

I agree with your assertion to a degree (you have disregarded 'intersex' where the person has something other than the XX or XY chromosome pattern).

However, you wrote "Referring to a male narcissist as ‘her’ is not being ‘polite’, it’s cowardly. Humans can’t shape-shift between sexes.You go down that path then it’s a short hop, skip and a jump to allowing male rapists in female prisons and the chemical castration of sexually confused kids."

You have confused biological sex with gender. This is a schoolboy error that has been covered in the media and even on NSC I would imagine. And you have done so in a pejorative, dismissive and nasty manner. That's why you have been called out.

I can't 'ban' you because I'm not a moderator. I'm not even going to bother 'reporting' you, even if you are implying that transgender men are rapists. My guess is your are a bit scared and confused (and ignorant) rather than bad. But we shall see. Why not do some reading before gobbing off so vigorously about things beyond your experience?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

He won’t have ‘zero’ influence if (when?) he is elected Labour Prime minister - I wonder if people had known in advance that Tony Blair would support the US’s illegal invasion on Iraq, they would have voted for him? I think it is not so much that the PM (or PM in waiting) have ‘zero influence’ on war but more that the electorate think it has zero influence on their lives and there are more important issues at home to focus on. The general moral compass of any leader that is standing for election is relevant though, even if some of the issues they chose to exercise moral judgment upon are not - which is why probably some ‘supporters’ are bothered by his position (or more accurately lack of an alternative position on this issue to the government).

Given Tony Blair comfortably won an election in 2005 after invading Iraq, and the alternative beforehand was Ian Duncan Smith as leader of a Conservative party who also supported the invasion, I'm going to guess that Labour would still have won in 2001 if people had known in advance. Probably by miles.
If and when he becomes Prime Minister and has some influence and doesn't have to primarily concern himself with getting elected in the first place, I will judge him by matters within his control, as I do the current government.
Similarly, I'm rather more bothered by local councillor's positions on matters that have significant bearing on their wards than I am their pretensions to influence foreign policy.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I agree with your assertion to a degree (you have disregarded 'intersex' where the person has something other than the XX or XY chromosome pattern).

However, you wrote "Referring to a male narcissist as ‘her’ is not being ‘polite’, it’s cowardly. Humans can’t shape-shift between sexes.You go down that path then it’s a short hop, skip and a jump to allowing male rapists in female prisons and the chemical castration of sexually confused kids."

You have confused biological sex with gender. This is a schoolboy error that has been covered in the media and even on NSC I would imagine. And you have done so in a pejorative, dismissive and nasty manner. That's why you have been called out.

I can't 'ban' you because I'm not a moderator. I'm not even going to bother 'reporting' you, even if you are implying that transgender men are rapists. My guess is your are a bit scared and confused (and ignorant) rather than bad. But we shall see. Why not do some reading before gobbing off so vigorously about things beyond your experience?

I'm afraid @ClemFandango (welcome back!) is simply parroting what will be the new Government line. The next election will be fought on an entirely "anti-woke" ticket because that's all they've got left. After 13 years of highlights such as taking backhanders and giving PPE contracts to their mates, partying through lockdown, failing to control immigration, 10% inflation, 6% interest rates, not getting Brexit done (Northern Ireland STILL doesn't have a government), five PMs (three unelected), more Chancellors and Home Secs than I can count and the whole country out on strike it's come down to a phoney culture war.

Hence why you're seeing this absolute bollocks about seven bins, meat taxes, war on motorists and Gents lavvies. It's nonsense.

And @ClemFandango would love to be banned for spouting it because it would make him a free speech martyr in his own head, after which he'll just sign back on with the next user name and spoofed IP.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Voting records have been covered in depth on the podcast you mention. You can only truly rely on voting records where there was a free vote to attack a candidate’s past, though all sides use voting history as a stick to beat other politicians with.

A political party in government has collective responsibility, you can’t go against the leadership if you’re being whipped and hold any form of responsible position within it, the voting record does not necessarily reflect how an individual would vote given a free vote.

His views are certainly not mine on many subjects, and anyone who’s been in a Conservative government certainly bears partial responsibility for our current predicament, but voting record has to be set against whether the issue was whipped.

Historically, the whip was used infrequently, modern governments use the whip pretty much constantly.

I’d certainly have him back in charge of our prisons like a shot.

I agree with this.

Rory has admitted that he was a career politician, voting against the government does not help you climb the greasy pole (unless you are Corbyn in the Labour Party attempting to make it unelectable).

 

[sydney]

Why is it always men going on about other men in female toilets ?

Surely this subject should be an issue for women to decide. If women don't want men in their toilets then men should use the men's. Simple.

one is inclined to agree with that .......women/girls need a safe space away from men/ boys for reasons that should be obvious to even the densest person.......if you are happy to use a trans bog then fill yer boots but the M F B G option should always be on offer.

 

[sydney]

I'm afraid @ClemFandango (welcome back!) is simply parroting what will be the new Government line. The next election will be fought on an entirely "anti-woke" ticket because that's all they've got left. After 13 years of highlights such as taking backhanders and giving PPE contracts to their mates, partying through lockdown, failing to control immigration, 10% inflation, 6% interest rates, not getting Brexit done (Northern Ireland STILL doesn't have a government), five PMs (three unelected), more Chancellors and Home Secs than I can count and the whole country out on strike it's come down to a phoney culture war.

Hence why you're seeing this absolute bollocks about seven bins, meat taxes, war on motorists and Gents lavvies. It's nonsense.

And @ClemFandango would love to be banned for spouting it because it would make him a free speech martyr in his own head, after which he'll just sign back on with the next user name and spoofed IP.

this is all getting a bit silly isn't it....(rhetorical)

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I suppose some people will think this is good, yes it’s good we have a Labour Party that stands for next to nothing and is virtually indistinguishable from a bunch of Tory wets

But Starmer will win an election.

Surely that's better than having a lefter-leaning leader who loses again?

 

[Weststander]

Isn’t the authenticity of the MP to be decided by the constituency at the ballot box?

I don’t have an issue but I guess it would have saved the UK from Boris.

In reality, a shoe-in for 400 SNP, Labour and Tories in safe seats.

 

[Weststander]

Has incidents of rape and assaults (and general harassment) increased? It is my understanding that trans folks are already using women's toilets (otherwise why all the uproar) so surely we have data to show the increases of which you speak?

My thought would be if someone was going to rape, assault or harass they probably wouldn't go to the trouble of dressing as a woman and going to a public toilet/changing room or whatever.

Dressing up isn’t required, just identify or say that you identify as ….. .

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

Voting records have been covered in depth on the podcast you mention. You can only truly rely on voting records where there was a free vote to attack a candidate’s past, though all sides use voting history as a stick to beat other politicians with.

A political party in government has collective responsibility, you can’t go against the leadership if you’re being whipped and hold any form of responsible position within it, the voting record does not necessarily reflect how an individual would vote given a free vote.

His views are certainly not mine on many subjects, and anyone who’s been in a Conservative government certainly bears partial responsibility for our current predicament, but voting record has to be set against whether the issue was whipped.

Historically, the whip was used infrequently, modern governments use the whip pretty much constantly.

I’d certainly have him back in charge of our prisons like a shot.

I agree with this.

Rory has admitted that he was a career politician, voting against the government does not help you climb the greasy pole (unless you are Corbyn in the Labour Party attempting to make it unelectable).

Rory Stewart was brought into this discussion as better than the Brighton Pavilion/a generic Labour candidate but I am not sure that you could say that he could do a better job as a Prison Secretary than say Tom Gray could do as Culture Secretary?

What RS does also have is a record of voting in parliament as a Conservative MP for nearly a decade that shows, if you want to view it charitably, that he is happy being lobby fodder voting against what he really believes for personal advancement. If you want that of your MP that's fine but I guess I wouldn't mind seeing if another candidate voted more in line with what they believed/in the interests of their constituents.

 

[chickens]

Rory Stewart was brought into this discussion as better than the Brighton Pavilion/a generic Labour candidate but I am not sure that you could say that he could do a better job as a Prison Secretary than say Tom Gray could do as Culture Secretary?

What RS does also have is a record of voting in parliament as a Conservative MP for nearly a decade that shows, if you want to view it charitably, that he is happy being lobby fodder voting against what he really believes for personal advancement. If you want that of your MP that's fine but I guess I wouldn't mind seeing if another candidate voted more in line with what they believed/in the interests of their constituents.

Welcome to the joy of modern politics, vote with your party or kiss your political career goodbye.

I personally wonder if it would be better if the whip could only be used for manifesto items, or whether that would just have “the American effect” where lobbyists effectively buy individual politicians entirely.

 

[Machiavelli]

Rory Stewart was brought into this discussion as better than the Brighton Pavilion/a generic Labour candidate but I am not sure that you could say that he could do a better job as a Prison Secretary than say Tom Gray could do as Culture Secretary?

What RS does also have is a record of voting in parliament as a Conservative MP for nearly a decade that shows, if you want to view it charitably, that he is happy being lobby fodder voting against what he really believes for personal advancement. If you want that of your MP that's fine but I guess I wouldn't mind seeing if another candidate voted more in line with what they believed/in the interests of their constituents.

My understanding of RS is that he's a fiscal conservative, so he'd have been right behind the austerity agenda in his voting record, which I CBA to look up. I suspect that ultimately he'd be hawkish in foreign policy too -- I suppose the vote on Libya would confirm or deny that.
While we're on RS, I hate the entire premise of The Rest is Politics so refuse to listen to it.

 

[Guinness Boy]

My understanding of RS is that he's a fiscal conservative, so he'd have been right behind the austerity agenda in his voting record, which I CBA to look up. I suspect that ultimately he'd be hawkish in foreign policy too -- I suppose the vote on Libya would confirm or deny that.
While we're on RS, I hate the entire premise of The Rest is Politics so refuse to listen to it.

How would you know you'll hate it if you don't listen to it.

And what is the premise you dislike? Two educated and experienced politicians from the centre wing of opposing parties discussing current affairs and answering questions in a reasonable and calm manner?

Beats Piers Morgan or GBeebies if you ask me.

 

[Machiavelli]

How would you know you'll hate it if you don't listen to it.

And what is the premise you dislike? Two educated and experienced politicians from the centre wing of opposing parties discussing current affairs and answering questions in a reasonable and calm manner?

Beats Piers Morgan or GBeebies if you ask me.

I have listened to it. Should have written continue to listen to it.
The premise is that it's extremism of the centre, where there's broad agreement on the frame, and minor differences within that, which are hammed up.
Agree about PM and GB, but that doesn't entirely exhaust the options.
Much better podcasts for me are:
Talking Politics RIP -- but you'll find much of the discussion remains highly relevant ...
... Past, Present, Future -- the new incarnation (or, to be precise, the amended iteration) of the above, although it's not as good
Ones and Tooze -- the presenter riles me somewhat, but Adam Tooze seriously knows his stuff

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm afraid @ClemFandango (welcome back!) is simply parroting what will be the new Government line. The next election will be fought on an entirely "anti-woke" ticket because that's all they've got left. After 13 years of highlights such as taking backhanders and giving PPE contracts to their mates, partying through lockdown, failing to control immigration, 10% inflation, 6% interest rates, not getting Brexit done (Northern Ireland STILL doesn't have a government), five PMs (three unelected), more Chancellors and Home Secs than I can count and the whole country out on strike it's come down to a phoney culture war.

Hence why you're seeing this absolute bollocks about seven bins, meat taxes, war on motorists and Gents lavvies. It's nonsense.

And @ClemFandango would love to be banned for spouting it because it would make him a free speech martyr in his own head, after which he'll just sign back on with the next user name and spoofed IP.

Indeed. Agree 100%.

One wonders, incidentally, How HMG and their anti-woke czar(ina) are faring in the minds of anti-woke supporters of exiled anti-woke warrior, Sue Ellen Braverman, who hates only one thing more than the imaginary ranks of the wokerati, and that's the diminutive leader of her own party. I presume the anti-woke wank and file element of the tory shambles membership have either not noticed, or don't care given that, after careful weighing up of the options, they have almost certainly decided to vote conservative.

When I say almost certainly, I mean almost certainly like the sky is almost certainly above the sea.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Indeed. Agree 100%.

One wonders, incidentally, How HMG and their anti-woke czar(ina) are faring in the minds of anti-woke supporters of exiled anti-woke warrior, Sue Ellen Braverman, who hates only one thing more than the imaginary ranks of the wokerati, and that's the diminutive leader of her own party. I presume the anti-woke wank and file element of the tory shambles membership have either not noticed, or don't care given that, after careful weighing up of the options, that have almost certainly decided to vote conservative.

When I say almost certainly, I mean almost certainly like the sky is almost certainly above the sea.

The question (I forget who it was) asked of Esther McVeigh when she was first appointed was absolutely brilliant. She was on one of these politics shows explaining how a Minister Without Portfolio is a co-ordinator and gets to see there's a connection between all the other Ministers. The retort was:

"ok then, given you're the Minister for Common Sense does that mean the rest of them haven't got any?"