[Albion] Brighton - "more ruthless, less ballet"

[Billy the Fish]

There are clear differences from last season. A better keeper is making a huge difference. The side is much more settled and there's definitely not as much tinkering with the starting formation. (e.g moving White to DM)

 

[Guinness Boy]

This is why I have to have a good accountant. Rest of the point stands though.

Perhaps we're just too early into the season and things may even themselves out a bit. Who knows? But while I saw plenty of mental toughness and excellent tactics at home to Man City and plenty of bad luck in the Man U, Palace and West Brom games there were too many where we simply knocked it around at a slow pace before choosing a poor option to shoot and way too many games where we played well for a half and then went totally off the boil.

The toughening up I refer to certainly started with bringing Sanchez into the team but it's the addition of Duffy and pairing Lallana and Biss in midfield that's given us a speed of thought and grit that were missing a lot - both Sheffield Utd games, Everton away, Burnley and Saints at home to name but five.

Anyway, we're probably not going to agree except for the fact that pretty much every Brighton fan currently has a wide, shit-eating grin and an Albion mojo of about 10.

 

[Simster]

Sorry, but as I said to Simster a 26 point xP swing isn't a statistical anomaly and it is backed up by what we're seeing with our own eyes. We're mentally stronger, playing it forward more, finishing better and getting luckier. And, yes, I think we're all absolutely ****ing loving it. I must have loaded the Premier League table on the BBC at least twenty times since the final whistle

Well I think you're largely wrong - that -21 difference last season was absolutely ridiculous and if you look at an xG table of last season, there was very little difference between the xG table and final league table when applied to most teams. We were the one major outlier, meaning that xG didn't do a good job of predicting the league position for one team out of 20.

Our case was the very definition of a statistical anomaly.

 

[Machiavelli]

Talking after the game yesterday with a couple of long time home and away Brighton fans and one started the conversation with the assertion that we are far more ruthless this season - I agree and used the phrase "more ruthless, less ballet". By which I mean we seem to be caring about the result more than the performance.

After a couple of games, particularly as we delivered an excellent performance as well against Watford, it could just have been the way we started but after 5 games it seems to be a bit of a pattern. In three of the five games we've won by a one goal margin having not dominated the game. Our xG and possession stats are lower. Oh, and we've had some luck. All last season with no luck at all, Now big slices, whether it was Burnley hitting the post or the VAR decisions going our way yesterday.

For me, at least part of this is down to White going and Duffy coming in. We've had to abandon the slavish adherence to wing backs. Yesterday we looked like we'd lined up as 4-3-3 to match Leicester, albeit that Cucerella was pushed up high the way Liverpool use Robertson (what a signing MC looks too) and when we needed to dig in an fight at the back we did.

It also suits our strikers. Two goals from strikers again yesterday and Maupay is in the form of his life.

In short, it seems that Potter has brought a bit more rugged football to go with the rugged look - without resorting to long ball nastiness or a low block.

I obviously love it but what do you prefer - the pretty patterns and missed chances or getting results from difficult situations?

I think you're wrong in your assessment, and are trying to find patterns when it's too early to confirm, and that factors such as luck and decision-making have had a bigger impact than you acknowledge.
I agree with those that said it was only against Watford that we clearly deserved to win. The rest is down to small margins, and this season they're going in our favour, whereas last season they didn't.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think you're wrong in your assessment, and are trying to find patterns when it's too early to confirm, and that factors such as luck and decision-making have had a bigger impact than you acknowledge.
I agree with those that said it was only against Watford that we clearly deserved to win. The rest is down to small margins, and this season they're going in our favour, whereas last season they didn't.

By refs or players?

Decision making by players is an absolutely huge part of the skill set, it's not a factor. And to make good decisions you need mental toughness, space and to be empowered to be direct where needed.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

There are clear differences from last season. A better keeper is making a huge difference. The side is much more settled and there's definitely not as much tinkering with the starting formation. (e.g moving White to DM)

Sanchez played in 26 of our 38 league games last season, so not sure you can call out the keeper given he's been ever present in our last 31 league games. We've had 5 games so far this season, we've had 18 different players feature in our starting XI - that is a fair bit of tinkering.

 

[CHAPPERS]

I agree with those that said it was only against Watford that we clearly deserved to win. .

In every game we have won we had had the most shots on target.

 

[Stat Brother]

There are clear differences from last season. A better keeper is making a huge difference.

I think that post sums up this entire thread.

The team that's been a mainstay of 16th and 17th has now slumped all the way down to 4th from 2nd - why?


we can all come up with an answer and amazingly that answer will:-

- reflect our previous gripes.
- acknowledge the previous pros and cons.
- Spin it all into reasons for success now.

The beauty of the thread is we can all say something different and all be right!

We're collectively just 4 blind men describing an elephant.

 

[AlbionBro]

Mike Bailey once said "I am in the results business,if you want entertainment go to a circus"

I would not go that far,but Potter certainly seems to have taken a more pragmatic approach.I would rather see us grind out results than play pretty football and lose.

Early days and good to see Big Shane back

We still seem entertaining to me.

The Irish lad has always led from the front and I hope that he continues to do so, I agree it's early days, but we can still live in a dream world. So I still will.

 

[Audax]

Talking after the game yesterday with a couple of long time home and away Brighton fans and one started the conversation with the assertion that we are far more ruthless this season - I agree and used the phrase "more ruthless, less ballet". By which I mean we seem to be caring about the result more than the performance.

After a couple of games, particularly as we delivered an excellent performance as well against Watford, it could just have been the way we started but after 5 games it seems to be a bit of a pattern. In three of the five games we've won by a one goal margin having not dominated the game. Our xG and possession stats are lower. Oh, and we've had some luck. All last season with no luck at all, Now big slices, whether it was Burnley hitting the post or the VAR decisions going our way yesterday.

For me, at least part of this is down to White going and Duffy coming in. We've had to abandon the slavish adherence to wing backs. Yesterday we looked like we'd lined up as 4-3-3 to match Leicester, albeit that Cucerella was pushed up high the way Liverpool use Robertson (what a signing MC looks too) and when we needed to dig in an fight at the back we did.

It also suits our strikers. Two goals from strikers again yesterday and Maupay is in the form of his life.

In short, it seems that Potter has brought a bit more rugged football to go with the rugged look - without resorting to long ball nastiness or a low block.

I obviously love it but what do you prefer - the pretty patterns and missed chances or getting results from difficult situations?

My hope is we zero in on a style of play that is both good to watch and resilient when necessary. That doesn't need much change from last season - sprinkle in a little more confidence amongst the players, a little faster transition play, and a little more "luck" on the defensive side and we'll continue to get the results that will deliver a top 10 finish.

Not sure it is a binary choice but if so I would go for results over performance. In reality it’s finding the right balance. There will be some games where the pretty football will assert itself and others where we dig in. Maybe we will see both within games.

Agree with this. The ballet won't be gone, it'll still make its appearances through the season. What I would hope, though, is that we'll be a little quicker in how we deploy it, and thus not need it for as long and actually produce a result from it instead of breaking down.

Absolutely spot on, and speaks a lot to human nature. What the argument is missing is an acknowledgement that Potter was 'always' trying to make us play quicker and find that killer pass quicker, what we were doing last year wasn't a final product but a stage in our development. As we get better at it, so the goals and results will come. Its not a change in philosophy, we just weren't often able to implement it last year, now we're just getting better at doing what he wants us to do, and he's getting better at making it happen.

I can see a parallel with Piers Morgan defending his comments about Emma Raducanu being mentally-weak at Wimbledon. To paraphrase his defence 'I said she needed to toughen up, and she obviously took my advice'. He was wrong in his assessment of her as weak, didn't recognise that it was just a stage on a journey, and then uses the better result at the US Open to try and prove he was right.

Another parallel that crosses my mind is Daniel Ricciardo in F1 this season. He's come into a team with a car that his style just didn't match. He's worked really hard week in, week out, to try to overcome his mental and physical muscle memory from previous cars he's driven. And struggled to get anything out of it despite clearly still being a very talented driver, and still being able to deliver some quality race craft on Sunday's (albeit from a weaker base). Then we have the summer break. Time away from the car. Time to just allow things to sink in, for the subconscious to work through it all. Then ... bang: delivers a qually result at Spa to inspire some confidence, beats Norris in qually at Zandvoort, and then matches Norris in qually at Monza, beats him in the sprint race, and wins the Sunday race. It looks an awful lot like something clicked into place over the summer break for Ricciardo (remains to be seen if that continues...).

In much the same way, it looks like something has clicked into place for our squad over the off-season. Those small margins are swinging the other way and the results we just couldn't get last season, we're getting this season. That winner at Brentford - I can just see it in my head, last season there would have been 1 or 2 more touches, a worse angle for the shot, and 1 or 2 more defenders in a position to help out the keeper. This season: the shot gets taken earlier, gets taken clean, and leaves the keeper without a chance.

I agree that we were a ridiculous outlier, it was absolutely absurd. The sheer number of games leaving us pissed off and shaking our heads was quite incredible really - and it was never because of managerial naivity or poor squad selection or whatever - just profligacy, or plain bitter, bad luck. That WBA away game - a perfectly good goal disallowed and TWO missed pens. Or Man Utd home - 5 times we hit the woodwork. FIVE! The less said about the Palace home game the better, and it's not as if that was an isolated case either. There were so many of these games. Sheff Utd at home who scored with their one attack when down to ten men as we failed with wave after wave of attacks. Both Fulham games we should have won (another marginal decision goal ruled out there), and so on.

We were frequently better than our opposition (sometimes battering them) and failed to win. It really was barely believable. The reason I was never "Potter Out" was because I had never seen such absurd luck/results in all my life and just was not prepared to lay the results we were seeing at the manager's door. As I kept saying all last season, I'd love to have felt it was reasonable to blame Potter and call for a change, but I just couldn't do it. It was this level of frustration that made last season quite unenjoyable at times, despite playing some lovely football, so I'm delighted at Potter getting what he deserves this time round.

Another to add to the list: Martinez and his how-many-flying-saves as we absolutely battered Villa and only got a 0-0 draw.

Sorry, but as I said to Simster a 26 point xP swing isn't a statistical anomaly and it is backed up by what we're seeing with our own eyes. We're mentally stronger, playing it forward more, finishing better and getting luckier. And, yes, I think we're all absolutely ****ing loving it. I must have loaded the Premier League table on the BBC at least twenty times since the final whistle

Sanchez played in 26 of our 38 league games last season, so not sure you can call out the keeper given he's been ever present in our last 31 league games. We've had 5 games so far this season, we've had 18 different players feature in our starting XI - that is a fair bit of tinkering.

I'd be interested in seeing if anyone has done some work breaking down our season last year into meaningful buckets to see if there was any xG progression through the season. The season as a whole we absolutely produced an anomaly. Just wondering if there's anything that stands out that indicates some progression as the season went on. IIRC someone mentioned in another thread that our actual goals conceded vs xG against improved once Sanchez replaced Ryan. We produced a few late season goals to win key matches to secure survival as well, so I'm wondering if there's a similar slice of matches in late season where our xG for and actual for may have improved and been a pointer towards what we're seeing now.

Even if there isn't, thinking back to the Ricciardo example: the squad has had an off season since. An opportunity to reflect on the season before, get the Potter philosophy to settle in a bit more, and for some more training exercises to help solidify it all. It didn't need much to swing us from "how did they not win that?" to "they're putting the points on the board".

 

[BN41Albion]

Mike Bailey once said "I am in the results business,if you want entertainment go to a circus"

I would not go that far,but Potter certainly seems to have taken a more pragmatic approach.I would rather see us grind out results than play pretty football and lose.

Early days and good to see Big Shane back

Good thing is we've still looked bloody good in spells in most games. Between 10 mins and them scoring yesterday we looked sublime

 

[Frankworthington]

We still seem entertaining to me.

The Irish lad has always led from the front and I hope that he continues to do so, I agree it's early days, but we can still live in a dream world. So I still will.

Yep.So will I

As you say,we are still entertaining,we just seem to have tightened up a bit

Great to see the big man enjoying his football.The death of his father must of un-settled him and he did not have an easy time in Glasgow,To think there was talk of BUYING a replacement for White!!

Great days to bee an Albion fan.A top ten finish is a possibility!!

 

[Bry Nylon]

The Monday Night Club on BBC Radio 5Live (started at 7pm) will be analysing Brighton tonight, so it will be interesting to hear their analysis of our season so far and their reasons for our points tally.

Sadly Chris Sutton doesn’t seem to be on the panel tonight as I always enjoy his uniquely blunt assessments. Looking forward to hearing Rory Smith share his thoughts though.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The Monday Night Club on BBC Radio 5Live (started at 7pm) will be analysing Brighton tonight, so it will be interesting to hear their analysis of our season so far and their reasons for our points tally.

Sadly Chris Sutton doesn’t seem to be on the panel tonight as I always enjoy his uniquely blunt assessments. Looking forward to hearing Rory Smith share his thoughts though.

Not sure Micah Richards was very impressed with Charlie mentioning we're ahead of Citeh

Split on the use of xG and split on how good we really are - just like this thread, Lots of love for Potter though.

 

[Bakero]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but according to Naylor, against Everton we had "66 per cent possession. Nine of the 14 shots Potter’s team had in that match, including blocks, came from outside the box. Only three of the shots were on target.

Against Leicester, nine of the 12 shots they had in total were from inside the box, with five on target, from only 37 per cent possession."

 

[Guinness Boy]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but according to Naylor, against Everton we had "66 per cent possession. Nine of the 14 shots Potter’s team had in that match, including blocks, came from outside the box. Only three of the shots were on target.

Against Leicester, nine of the 12 shots they had in total were from inside the box, with five on target, from only 37 per cent possession."

Good stat, and though Everton was this season that's sort of what I'm on about. No one would have said we played well against Everton, yet we had more of the ball and more actual shots against Everton. xG, shots and possession are not enough. You have to use it.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Not sure Micah Richards was very impressed with Charlie mentioning we're ahead of Citeh

Split on the use of xG and split on how good we really are - just like this thread, Lots of love for Potter though.

Ha! Yes. It's an interesting production dynamic on that show and I feel the listener gets the best out of Micah Richards when Chris Sutton is there to challenge him a bit more. Obviously, the panel are all broadcasting remotely and can see each other via Zoom / Teams whatever and it sounds like Micah was reinforcing his 'ex-pro' status by having his awards and medals on display again....Sutton is very quick to take the piss about that sort of thing in a very self-deprecating way.

 

[Machiavelli]

By refs or players?

Decision making by players is an absolutely huge part of the skill set, it's not a factor. And to make good decisions you need mental toughness, space and to be empowered to be direct where needed.

By refs, linesmen (or assistant refs, if you prefer) and VAR. We won on Sunday because of them. I know certain Albion fans differ on that, but I have zero inclination to pursue this -- it's just so obvious.
I agree about what you're saying about players: the best players make the best decisions (improving this skill-set is what Pep considers to be his most important role).
But I agree with the contributions on this thread from [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] and, even more so, [MENTION=805]Kalimantan Gull[/MENTION].

 

[Machiavelli]

The Monday Night Club on BBC Radio 5Live (started at 7pm) will be analysing Brighton tonight, so it will be interesting to hear their analysis of our season so far and their reasons for our points tally.

Sadly Chris Sutton doesn’t seem to be on the panel tonight as I always enjoy his uniquely blunt assessments. Looking forward to hearing Rory Smith share his thoughts though.

We share your love for 'Zippy' as we call him.
On one of his other fairly recent R5 inputs, he was extremely complementary about us. That to me isn't surprising, because he knows his football, which kind of gets lost with his wind-up merchant routine, which makes for great radio. It not only makes for more entertaining radio but, as you say, it provokes the other contributors to raise their game.
My only disappointment is that the Zippy and Bruce show is rarer these days. They're a double act supreme.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

A few points to chuck in, in no particular order

1. Fans back makes a massive difference. We couldn't buy a home win last year and we had to wait until after Christmas for 2 home wins which is done already in 3 games. Does the lino put his flag up in an empty stadium? Does the crowd help the players keep going? It wasn't just us either as from memory 12/20 teams had better records away from home. We hung on to the win this year, last year we lost that same fixture with largely the same team from the same position at half time. We will never know but the stats tell us crowds matter.

2. Maupay is better in front of goal. Our xG anomoly was in part down to his profligacy last year.Temporarily at least, that looks better - he looks a lot sharper in front of a crowd which in his case I doubt is coincidence. That penalty was a world away from the one he missed the entire goal last year.

3. Burnley and Leicester have exposed us at corners quite brutally but we have somehow got away with it both times. It's hardly a new thing that needs fixing either and is an odd problem with Burn and Duffy in the team.

4. We all know what's coming against Palace don't we?