[Politics] Brexit

[GT49er]

Respect for our democracy might include not telling people we spend £350m a week on the EU which can be diverted to the NHS.

Respect for democracy is respecting the will of the people in a democratic referendum. The referendum has been done; the majority of people didn't agree with you. That is democracy, like it or not.

 

[5ways]

Respect for democracy is respecting the will of the people in a democratic referendum. The referendum has been done; the majority of people didn't agree with you. That is democracy, like it or not.

I'm not disputing that but some might argue democracy requires voters to be informed on the issues prior to casting a ballot.

As Jefferson noted

"An enlightened citizenry is indispensable for the proper functioning of a republic. Self-government is not possible unless the citizens are educated sufficiently to enable them to exercise oversight. It is therefore imperative that the nation see to it that a suitable education be provided for all its citizens".

 

[GT49er]

I'm not disputing that..........

..........well, fair play for that.

...................but some might argue democracy requires voters to be informed on the issues prior to casting a ballot.

We were informed. Not necessarily by either the remain or the leave campaigns, but the information was available.

As Jefferson noted:
"An enlightened citizenry is indispensable for the proper functioning of a republic. Self-government is not possible unless the citizens are educated sufficiently to enable them to exercise oversight. It is therefore imperative that the nation see to it that a suitable education be provided for all its citizens".

So now you're blaming the education system? Nothing about 'information' in this ex American president's statement. In this matter he's about as relevant as Obama.

 

[5ways]

..........well, fair play for that.

...................but some might argue democracy requires voters to be informed on the issues prior to casting a ballot.[/QUOTE}
We were informed. Not necessarily by either the remain or the leave campaigns, but the information was available.


So now you're blaming the education system? Nothing about 'information' in this ex American president's statement. In this matter he's about as relevant as Obama.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe someone who properly had all the facts laid out fully and clearly in front of them could convince themselves to vote leave in most cases. I really think it was an opportunity to kick politicians and piss on the parade of those better off by, for want of a much better word, a large economic underclass. I hate to say it but I think for many it was about getting some sort of revenge for being dealt a few duff hands in life. I think back to the Newsnight interview with leavers, voting for leave because they want some inchoate 'change'. It went like this: Mark Carney says Brexit is bad. Oh yeah? Has Mark Carney had to go around Sainsbury's on a budget? one retorted. No he probably hasn't. Another complained about GP waiting times, so she voted out too. If she really thought about it or had it explained to her the huge benefits to the NHS from the EU rationally remain is a better option. But did she really want to hear it? Did anyone offer to explain it? Frankly they didn't seem to have much to lose. Those with the most to lose, the young, were quite clear they saw a more European future.

 

[GT49er]

What I'm saying is that I don't believe someone who properly had all the facts laid out fully and clearly in front of them could convince themselves to vote leave in most cases. I really think it was an opportunity to kick politicians and piss on the parade of those better off by, for want of a much better word, a large economic underclass. I hate to say it but I think for many it was about getting some sort of revenge for being dealt a few duff hands in life. I think back to the Newsnight interview with leavers, voting for leave because they want some inchoate 'change'. It went like this: Mark Carney says Brexit is bad. Oh yeah? Has Mark Carney had to go around Sainsbury's on a budget? one retorted. No he probably hasn't. Another complained about GP waiting times, so she voted out too. If she really thought about it or had it explained to her the huge benefits to the NHS from the EU rationally remain is a better option. But did she really want to hear it? Did anyone offer to explain it? Frankly they didn't seem to have much to lose. Those with the most to lose, the young, were quite clear they saw a more European future.

Yes, probably some people did vote for the wrong reasons. Some would have voted remain because they were devout lib dems (or Labour) doing what their party told them; some will have voted remain "because our government's told us to, so it must be right". Same caveats apply to every General Election (or referendum) there's ever been.

Ultimately though, voting for the wrong reasons probably evens itself out on both sides; other people will vote for the right reasons, or what they perceive to be the right reasons, based on facts as they see them. At the end of the day, that is democracy; imperfect perhaps - but a country mile better than anything else. Sometimes democracy doesn't deliver what we personally want - I have never voted Tory in my life, but for most of my life my fellow citizens have voted to make me live under a conservative government, against my wishes. That's democracy.

PS. "The young have got the most to lose". One of the nastier lies of the Remain campaign was to suggest to young people (who are quite rightly vehemently opposed to racism) that people who wanted to leave were racist; thousands of them believed it, sadly. However, consider this - parents only ever want the best for their children - that's why so many of us voted leave, for the benefit of the young.

 

[pastafarian]

[

Yes, probably some people did vote for the wrong reasons. Some would have voted remain because they were devout lib dems (or Labour) doing what their party told them; some will have voted remain "because our government's told us to, so it must be right". Same caveats apply to every General Election (or referendum) there's ever been.

Ultimately though, voting for the wrong reasons probably evens itself out on both sides; other people will vote for the right reasons, or what they perceive to be the right reasons, based on facts as they see them. At the end of the day, that is democracy; imperfect perhaps - but a country mile better than anything else. Sometimes democracy doesn't deliver what we personally want - I have never voted Tory in my life, but for most of my life my fellow citizens have voted to make me live under a conservative government, against my wishes. That's democracy.

PS. "The young have got the most to lose". One of the nastier lies of the Remain campaign was to suggest to young people (who are quite rightly vehemently opposed to racism) that people who wanted to leave were racist; thousands of them believed it, sadly. However, consider this - parents only ever want the best for their children - that's why so many of us voted leave, for the benefit of the young.

very well put

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Yes, probably some people did vote for the wrong reasons. Some would have voted remain because they were devout lib dems (or Labour) doing what their party told them; some will have voted remain "because our government's told us to, so it must be right". Same caveats apply to every General Election (or referendum) there's ever been.

Ultimately though, voting for the wrong reasons probably evens itself out on both sides; other people will vote for the right reasons, or what they perceive to be the right reasons, based on facts as they see them. At the end of the day, that is democracy; imperfect perhaps - but a country mile better than anything else. Sometimes democracy doesn't deliver what we personally want - I have never voted Tory in my life, but for most of my life my fellow citizens have voted to make me live under a conservative government, against my wishes. That's democracy.

PS. "The young have got the most to lose". One of the nastier lies of the Remain campaign was to suggest to young people (who are quite rightly vehemently opposed to racism) that people who wanted to leave were racist; thousands of them believed it, sadly. However, consider this - parents only ever want the best for their children - that's why so many of us voted leave, for the benefit of the young.

I doubt very much that vast numbers of people voted Remain because they were swept up by the sheer emotion of the occasion, wound up by populist newspapers and two-bob politician waving their flags and ranting their lies and anti-foreigner distortions time and time again..

(Oh, and you say that the Remain campaign suggested to young people that Leavers were racists. Some individuals may have said that but you imply that the racist charge was a Remain default position. Care to justify that?)

 

[Triggaaar]

What I'm saying is that I don't believe someone who properly had all the facts laid out fully and clearly in front of them could convince themselves to vote leave in most cases.

So, those that disagree with you must be stupid.

I really think it was an opportunity to kick politicians and piss on the parade of those better off by, for want of a much better word, a large economic underclass.

Sorry, stupid and poor.

Those with the most to lose, the young, were quite clear they saw a more European future.

So much so they stated in bed.

 

[studio150]

I really think it was an opportunity to kick politicians and piss on the parade of those better off by, for want of a much better word, a large economic underclass.

Sorry, stupid and poor.

Excellent you have got it 100% right, the economic underclass are stupid and poor.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Fail to see how weak Eurozone is less of our problem if we leave EU. We will still need access to single market we just have to adopt rules written by basket case economies rather than write them for said countries instead

It's interesting that you constantly castigate leave voters for believing lies and myths, and then post one yourself! This statement isn't even close to being true.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe someone who properly had all the facts laid out fully and clearly in front of them could convince themselves to vote leave in most cases. I really think it was an opportunity to kick politicians and piss on the parade of those better off by, for want of a much better word, a large economic underclass. I hate to say it but I think for many it was about getting some sort of revenge for being dealt a few duff hands in life. I think back to the Newsnight interview with leavers, voting for leave because they want some inchoate 'change'. It went like this: Mark Carney says Brexit is bad. Oh yeah? Has Mark Carney had to go around Sainsbury's on a budget? one retorted. No he probably hasn't. Another complained about GP waiting times, so she voted out too. If she really thought about it or had it explained to her the huge benefits to the NHS from the EU rationally remain is a better option. But did she really want to hear it? Did anyone offer to explain it? Frankly they didn't seem to have much to lose. Those with the most to lose, the young, were quite clear they saw a more European future.

All of this, especially the bit in bold, is because you're so blinded by your own beliefs that you're unable to see the issue from other people's point of view.

The whole point of this referendum was to do your research and vote based on what was important to you. Most of the people I know did just that, resulting in votes either way.
I can think of two or three people I spoke to who voted without really having a clue either way - one girl voted remain because she's a socialist but didn't know what the Lisbon Treaty was when I mentioned it as being one of my reasons to vote leave. I've got a mate who voted leave and didn't know why!

Without a doubt there is a demographic which the leave campaign targeted with scare stories, stoking up nationalism among the poor is a political tactic the world over. That doesn't mean that all 17 million fall into this category though, and it won't become true no matter how many times you and others on this thread keep implying it.

 

[Bold Seagull]

 

[Baldseagull]

Respect for democracy is respecting the will of the people in a democratic referendum. The referendum has been done; the majority of people didn't agree with you. That is democracy, like it or not.

A referendum in itself is not democracy, it is a tool of democracy. I really do not understand how 2 referendums are less democratic than one.

Respect for democracy surely means you must be sure what the people want.

 

[GT49er]

A referendum in itself is not democracy, it is a tool of democracy. I really do not understand how 2 referendums are less democratic than one.

Respect for democracy surely means you must be sure what the people want.

Two, three, more referendums - whatever. So, we should go on having referendums until we get the 'right' result - that's what you appear to be adwvocating. And you really can't see how that's less democratic? Words fail me!

 

[GT49er]

(Oh, and you say that the Remain campaign suggested to young people that Leavers were racists. Some individuals may have said that but you imply that the racist charge was a Remain default position. Care to justify that?)

OK, I should have said remain Campaign supporters. Remain in general seemed quite happy to let it lie as a default position; after all, they got a lot of votes from young people who fell for it.

 

[Simster]

Two, three, more referendums - whatever. So, we should go on having referendums until we get the 'right' result - that's what you appear to be adwvocating. And you really can't see how that's less democratic? Words fail me!

I think we deserve a say on the terms of Brexit, surely? I thing Theresa May is doing the right thing by effectively delegating Brexit negotiation to a pro-Brexit minister. But if that person comes back waving a paper with shìttier terms of Brexit than anyone thought possible, then it needs to be put to the people.

 

[GT49er]

I think we deserve a say on the terms of Brexit, surely? I thing Theresa May is doing the right thing by effectively delegating Brexit negotiation to a pro-Brexit minister. But if that person comes back waving a paper with shìttier terms of Brexit than anyone thought possible, then it needs to be put to the people.

Those negotiations that are going to take place before Article 50 is activated? Wonder who you think they'll be with.

 

[vegster]

The share price of Poundland has surged.... Another indicator of where the post-brexit UK is heading .

 

[Lincoln Imp]

It's interesting that you constantly castigate leave voters for believing lies and myths, and then post one yourself! This statement isn't even close to being true.



All of this, especially the bit in bold, is because you're so blinded by your own beliefs that you're unable to see the issue from other people's point of view.

The whole point of this referendum was to do your research and vote based on what was important to you. Most of the people I know did just that, resulting in votes either way.
I can think of two or three people I spoke to who voted without really having a clue either way - one girl voted remain because she's a socialist but didn't know what the Lisbon Treaty was when I mentioned it as being one of my reasons to vote leave. I've got a mate who voted leave and didn't know why!

Without a doubt there is a demographic which the leave campaign targeted with scare stories, stoking up nationalism among the poor is a political tactic the world over. That doesn't mean that all 17 million fall into this category though, and it won't become true no matter how many times you and others on this thread keep implying it.

I agree with a great deal of this, although I'm now worried about my circle of friends and acquaintances because I am sure that very few of them, especially the Leavers, researched the facts and voted accordingly. One or two did but most I spoke or listened to voted viscerally, reacting to the Leave campaign techniques you describe in your final para. Of course you're right that not all 17m Leave voters fell into this category. Plenty did though. What should we say? One in five? A couple of million overall? None of us can be certain.

Last word here to my friend the retired headmaster. He did his research, thought about it, considered his personal circumstances and voted Leave. His particular concern was, as he put it, a deficit of democracy caused by the EU Commission's lack of accountability. Fair enough. At the end of our amiable conversation he said something like this: "I'm pleased about the result but I'm worried about the way it was achieved. A lot of people voted for the wrong reasons." He was talking about the effects of what to him, a Leaver, and me, a Remainer, was a disreputable Leave campaign.

 

[Jim in the West]

Respect for democracy is respecting the will of the people in a democratic referendum. The referendum has been done; the majority of people didn't agree with you. That is democracy, like it or not.

I agree to a point, but we don't actually know what the Leavers were voting for (there was no plan, or unifying vision). Plus, we were told beforehand that the Referendum result would be advisory, and non-binding. Therefore, I think it's a bit of a stretch to now say that we are absolutely bound by the result. And, of course, over 48% of voters want to stay (that's a pretty large minority) - added to which nearly a third of the electorate didn't vote (for good or bad). Lastly, you have to add in the fact that the whole campaign was laced with lies, deception and scare-mongering (on both sides).

As a Remainer, I find it both difficult to accept the result, but also difficult to argue that we shouldn't now at least try to get the best Brexit possible. However, for all the reasons above, Brexit MUST be a soft-Brexit (imho).

 

[CHAPPERS]

The share price of Poundland has surged.... Another indicator of where the post-brexit UK is heading .

Takeover.

Edit: Realised you've probably got your tongue on your cheek.