[Politics] Brexit

[jaghebby]

It is about the small / medium size manufacturing companies, go down to Newhaven, all them have gone. That is the problem there is still not enough of it. My facts are right because I can see it with my own eyes. The last sucker punch for Newhaven was Parker Pen, I think they went to France, so it shows even when your in the EU it doesn't stop companies moving.

Here is an article from The Argus 2009
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/4497779.Parker_Pen_Newhaven_closure_plan_revealed/

You ignore the wider picture across the country. That might be the case for Newhaven and there are many factors that may have contributed. But come to Burgess Hill the industrial estates here are pretty dam busy!

 

[The Fifth Column]

Show me where I've whined. Go on, quote me. You won't find a moan on the whole thread. I've analysed what I think is happening in the Tory Party and with Article 50 - because my supposed non-job means I need to know a bit about the political and economic worlds here and abroad - and I've said the result should be accepted but that it isn't legally binding because that's factually correct. The point I was making is that it ISN'T a self centred vote. Bonus cap has just gone. Working Time Directive has just gone. Solvency rules will be rewritten. Any bank that moves to Frankfurt will take the best talent with them - in fact many of them could do the job remotely these days.

Perhaps you haven't got a pot to piss in because you've spent your life insulting the people you blame for your own position?

I haven't a pot to piss in but my life is far richer in many other ways, I'm happy with my lifestyle thanks, I have no need to blame anyone and haven't spent my life insulting people so more pointless speculation on your part there.

 

[Baldseagull]

Hesseltine on Newsnight just advocated ignoring the initial referendum result and vote again. Democracy traitor.

If one referendum is democratic, surely 2 would be more democratic? Personally not sure it would be the best thing, but if the same result came in I would find it easier to go forward with the exit. My difficulty is that we seem to be moving towards an exit with the votes of some people swinging it, now regretted.
If Democracy for you means the will of the majority, why would it hurt democracy to ensure that the majority want out?

 

[Guinness Boy]

I haven't a pot to piss in but my life is far richer in many other ways, I'm happy with my lifestyle thanks, I have no need to blame anyone and haven't spent my life insulting people so more pointless speculation on your part there.

Presumably then, you meant "self centred and up themselves and only interested in making themselves even more money" in a nice, cuddly, contented and non-judgemental sort of way.

 

[Baldseagull]

Course they bloody did, self centred and up themselves and only interested in making themselves even more money, hardly a surprise they voted for the status quo. Slightly different for those of us that don't have a pot to piss in, still don't have a pot to piss in but interesting to see the whining coming from the likes of you who may have to endure a tiny bit of a financial hit.

I am not worried about any personal financial hit, I can look after myself. It is people who do not have a pot to piss in that will feel the effects most, I don't know if you noticed who got hit hardest in the last recession?

 

[pb21]

If one referendum is democratic, surely 2 would be more democratic? Personally not sure it would be the best thing, but if the same result came in I would find it easier to go forward with the exit. My difficulty is that we seem to be moving towards an exit with the votes of some people swinging it, now regretted.
If Democracy for you means the will of the majority, why would it hurt democracy to ensure that the majority want out?

Now I’m not advocating another referendum but how would having another referendum be undemocratic?

You could argue that ignoring the referendum result would be undemocratic, although that isn’t necessarily the case, but you are skating on thin ice to argue it isn’t, but ice nonetheless.

However referendums are democratic aren’t they?

 

[ManOfSussex]

Perhaps we could have a referendum asking the British people, who've had enough of experts, on what Brexit actually means, because nobody seems to have a definitive answer.

 

[Bold Seagull]

However referendums are democratic aren’t they?

They always pose constitutional conflict with a parliamentary democracy. The referendum is democratic, our elected parliament is democratic, but the two cannot be easily reconciled when 3/4 of parliament doesn't believe in what the referendum result is telling them to do.

Michael Heseltine was right on News Night last night, this is a constitutional crisis we haven't experienced in modern history.

 

[The Fifth Column]

This also.

Every trade has a winner and a loser. The stock market - or the pound - collapsing won't affect many traders who will have seen it coming and shorted stocks or moved currencies. It WILL affect the little man. A sustained run on the pound will make petrol and imported goods more expensive, costs that are proportionately higher the less you earn. Companies who need to lay people off as a result of financial turmoil will start with the zero hours workers because there's virtually no cost to them. An increase in interest rates will increase private rents. Property falls will take a small chunk off in places like London and Brighton but see massive defaults and mass boarding ups in exactly the seats that voted leave.

It's hilarious that the Leave campaign are thumbing their noses at the bankers and middle classes when it's them that will suffer the most during an economic downturn. And let's see how many of them want to pick strawberries or clean up shit in a nursing home or wait tables or patrol the new Jungle camp that will soon appear between Dover and Folkstone.

More elitist looking down your nose nonsense from you. I knew full well my leave vote might lead to a financial crisis and the implications it would have for me personally and the country as a whole, this is a price worth paying in my opinion to extricate ourselves from the EU. And so now according to you all leave voters are only fit for strawberry picking, cleaning and waiting tables? You sound like exactly the sort of person, along with the political elite, I was hoping to piss off and affect with my leave vote so I'm mightily pleased to have done so! Every post of yours and others like you remind me that my vote to leave was not wasted so thank you. I happen to have a highly skilled job that is very rewarding, it doesn't pay particularly well and I'm never going to make any money from it but I go to work every day knowing I am making a difference to peoples lives so not all leave voters are lower working class as your snobby post seems to be suggesting.

I see the economy is yet to collapse and the markets are up again today. The immediate post Brexit vote financial collapse is apparently suspended now until after Article 50 has been invoked or maybe it won't happen at all, meanwhile the City continues to make money and prop up the economy for the rest of us peasants. I must remember to thank a banker next time I meet one.

 

[Baldseagull]

They left towns and normal people to rot over the years because nobody in government supported Manufacturing. It was all about London, all about the finance industry, and not about building real value in Manufacturing jobs for the future. Our towns have changed, our jobs have changed, and because of the ridicolous rules on free movement set out by the EU, this has ensured our wages have been kept down, it hasn't worked.
.
The people have spoken now. People might have shot themself in the foot for a few years, but may be it needed something like this for government, the EU and big business to finally wake up and think of the rest of us.

JCB supported Brexit. At least they didn't sell their business off to foreign investors.

JCB has factories across the World, including Germany. JCB will not suffer from Tarriffs into E.U. on products made in Germany. It intends to make India its largest manufacturing hub, imports from India to U.K. will be cheaper after exit. I suspect JCB UK operations would shrink if the Asian made product is cheaper to produce and import, than making here.

 

[biddles911]

Perhaps we could have a referendum asking the British people, who've had enough of experts, on what Brexit actually means, because nobody seems to have a definitive answer.

Pity the Brexit camp didn't see fit to spell this out in some detail pre-referendum! Difficult to make an informed choice without a clear idea of the alternatives.....

This recurring disdain for experts of all types rather baffles me. The fact that they don't always get it right or disagree with each other doesn't make it appropriate to completely ignore them.

What would you prefer; throwing a dart at a board instead and seeing where it lands?

Don't know how you can possibly ask the people anyway without getting 17 million different answers!?


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[hans kraay fan club]

Pity the Brexit camp didn't see fit to spell this out in some detail pre-referendum! Difficult to make an informed choice without a clear idea of the alternatives.....

Don't know how you can possibly ask the people anyway without getting 17 million different answers!?

In hindsight, not actually having any plans at all post-Brexit, was the Leave campaign's tactical masterstroke. Remainers kept repeating that there was no plan - that nobody had explained what Brexit actually MEANT, rationally supposing that this ought to be viewed as a bad thing.

In reality it transpired that 17 million people chose to vote for whatever they each WANTED it to mean.

 

[Guinness Boy]

More elitist looking down your nose nonsense from you. I knew full well my leave vote might lead to a financial crisis and the implications it would have for me personally and the country as a whole, this is a price worth paying in my opinion to extricate ourselves from the EU. And so now according to you all leave voters are only fit for strawberry picking, cleaning and waiting tables? You sound like exactly the sort of person, along with the political elite, I was hoping to piss off and affect with my leave vote so I'm mightily pleased to have done so! Every post of yours and others like you remind me that my vote to leave was not wasted so thank you. I happen to have a highly skilled job that is very rewarding, it doesn't pay particularly well and I'm never going to make any money from it but I go to work every day knowing I am making a difference to peoples lives so not all leave voters are lower working class as your snobby post seems to be suggesting.

I see the economy is yet to collapse and the markets are up again today. The immediate post Brexit vote financial collapse is apparently suspended now until after Article 50 has been invoked or maybe it won't happen at all, meanwhile the City continues to make money and prop up the economy for the rest of us peasants. I must remember to thank a banker next time I meet one.

So you're perfectly content and happy but you voted specifically to piss people off even though you knew it would have an adverse effect on the country initially? Ok then.

And, yes, look at the areas that voted Leave and then think about who in those areas does the minimum wage jobs that abound there. Might it be the very people we've just "regained control" over? Although we should be alright for a while given that no actual changes to our immigration and border policy will be possible until around 2019 at the earliest, except for the fact that the French would be withiin their rights to abandon Sangatte the second we invoke Article 50.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Perhaps we could have a referendum asking the British people, who've had enough of experts, on what Brexit actually means, because nobody seems to have a definitive answer.

Pity the Brexit camp didn't see fit to spell this out in some detail pre-referendum! Difficult to make an informed choice without a clear idea of the alternatives.....

This recurring disdain for experts of all types rather baffles me. The fact that they don't always get it right or disagree with each other doesn't make it appropriate to completely ignore them.

What would you prefer; throwing a dart at a board instead and seeing where it lands?

Don't know how you can possibly ask the people anyway without getting 17 million different answers!?

It's been explained multiple times on this thread.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yes it is and it is broadly why I voted Leave. For those that keep complaining that Leave voters are stupid it may help explain that there is an intelligent rationale for our decision and it would be better to engage with it than continue with the incomprehension. I know the tone of the article is for the Left to adapt to the new reality but I genuinely believe that this new reality is a better one than the corporate status quo we have just voted out.

My ballot paper asked me about whether to Leave or Remain in the EU. Where did you get one of those for voting out the corporate status quo?

 

[ManOfSussex]

What we need right now is a messiah and I should know because I've followed a few.

 

[SK1NT]

I haven't a pot to piss in but my life is far richer in many other ways, I'm happy with my lifestyle thanks, I have no need to blame anyone and haven't spent my life insulting people so more pointless speculation on your part there.

You do realise who get's hit hardest during recessions?? The people without a pot to piss in...
Turkeys/Christmas comes to mind.

 

[Baldseagull]

It is about the small / medium size manufacturing companies, go down to Newhaven, all them have gone. That is the problem there is still not enough of it. My facts are right because I can see it with my own eyes. The last sucker punch for Newhaven was Parker Pen, I think they went to France, so it shows even when your in the EU it doesn't stop companies moving.

Here is an article from The Argus 2009
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/4497779.Parker_Pen_Newhaven_closure_plan_revealed/

You can see with your eyes what has happened, but you cannot see why, just from looking at the industrial estate.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

You quoted : You may be forgetting the 2,500+ occasions where the UK has agreed with a measure, and won. I just replied That the UK has been in a losing minority more often over the past few years

Well actually i didn't that was somebody else but never mind that small attention to detail It means very little either way

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes it is and it is broadly why I voted Leave. For those that keep complaining that Leave voters are stupid it may help explain that there is an intelligent rationale for our decision and it would be better to engage with it than continue with the incomprehension. I know the tone of the article is for the Left to adapt to the new reality but I genuinely believe that this new reality is a better one than the corporate status quo we have just voted out.

As far as I can see, the rationale is, we don't like what we have, looks difficult to fix, lets burn it and start again, we will have the foundations in place.

But what does the replacement really look like? It will look much like the old shit, just smaller.