[Politics] Brexit

[GT49er]

Look, I get the arguments people make for voting again. But you also surely can understand how it looks when you lose something, then say "Ok, that one doesn't count, let's do it again, and this one will definitely count"

And that absolutely nails the crux of the whole matter. 48% of the voters in the UK - and a hefty majority on NSC - are incapable of understanding.


Anyway, now that the prominently remainer mods have merged yet another thread with this all-inclusive remainer love-in thread, I'm out again. Not worth the candle.............

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Wow...looking likely that the border will be the Irish Sea....dup will be crying in the pulpits.

About time that the DUP tail stopped waging the UK dog.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

im afraid it does, other EU related referedums have been decided on similar margins, Sweden joined on 52.3% while Norway declined on 52.2 - where they both wrong. its a tired old argument, and parliament voted to leave by 494 to 122 anyway.

52% of the vote does not give 100% of the say if everyone wants it settled and the country to heal and move on.

Instead, totally vanquishing half of the country just leads to decades of division and acrimony.


We leave for sure, but we leave in a way that most can live with.

Put another way - 52% of the 'Should' does give 100% of the 'How'.

 

[pb21]

im afraid it does, other EU related referedums have been decided on similar margins, Sweden joined on 52.3% while Norway declined on 52.2 - where they both wrong. its a tired old argument, and parliament voted to leave by 494 to 122 anyway.

I think a fundamental difference is that in those cases people knew exactly what they were voting for (Sweden to join an existing union with known rules and expectations etc, and Norway to stick with their model), whereas our referendum was for a concept.

So on that basis 52% have 100% of the say on the concept (unless there is good reason to question that concept) but 100% should have a say on the realisation of that concept.

 

[clapham_gull]

Ok here is my prediction.

1) The ERG won't like this, but Parliament will vote this through on the basis of....

2) A second referendum in NI (after a technical delay) to give consent to staying in the Customs Union.

4) This eventually lead to the re-unification of Ireland and Northern Ireland, but not for a few years yet.

5) Very soon, a second Scottish referendum will take place which the Nationalists will win.

6) Scotland will successfully apply to re-join the EU.

7) England will be bordered on all sides eventually by the EU.

8) Leavers will claim that they knew exactly what they voted for and that was for an independent England with a Bank Holiday on St. Georges Day.

9) The Elgin Marbles will definitely stay in the British Museum.

 

[dingodan]

What you say makes zero sense. If you are a remainer you want to remain and so are against any form of brexit. If you are ok with a form of brexit you are a brexiteer.

You aren't considering those people, likely quite a few, who took part in the vote thinking that the outcome will be decided by the vote, and they will accept it.

You can be a remainer who believes that we should leave because that was the outcome of the vote. Just like you could be a leaver who would have believed that we should remain if that had won the vote.

I like to think people care at least as much about votes being respected as they do about their personal position on brexit. They ought to, since they were willing to take part in the vote in the first place.

If you would take part in a vote, but only intend to accept the outcome if you won, I'd like to think you are in a minority.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Actually, you just hope that nothing helps.



Sent from my reluctant unicorn...........

Well maybe, from your reluctant unicorn, you could tell us what this magical 'good deal' looks like?

It's just that with nobody in government, the leave campaign, NSC being able to give even an outline of what it would be, somebody less naive could easily jump to the conclusion that it's just another of Dominic Cummings lies

But I'm sure you could put that idea to bed immediately with the briefest of explanations of what this 'good deal' consists of

 

[dingodan]

Remainer mods!? **** me are you serious? If anything they seem to be pro-leave as they allow racist bile and ban anyone who complains about it.

& allowed people to be called racists and more just for having a different political view from someone else.

On balance I would say mods have been pretty fair and tended towards hands off when it comes to this thread.

We are lucky (or perhaps not!) that this thread has been allowed to exist at all given how some people have conducted themselves here.

It's definately a "remainer" thread, but Brighton is a remainer city so that is to be expected.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Ok here is my prediction.

1) The ERG won't like this, but Parliament will vote this through on the basis of....

2) A second referendum in NI (after a technical delay) to give consent to staying in the Customs Union.

4) This eventually lead to the re-unification of Ireland and Northern Ireland, but not for a few years yet.

5) Very soon, a second Scottish referendum will take place which the Nationalists will win.

6) Scotland will successfully apply to re-join the EU.

7) England will be bordered on all sides eventually by the EU.

8) Leavers will claim that they knew exactly what they voted for and that was for an independent England with a Bank Holiday on St. Georges Day.

9) The Elgin Marbles will definitely stay in the British Museum.

Very possibly.

And after 10 or so years, England gets its Super Switzerland deal ( makes sense as another country completely enclosed by the EU... ).

 

[beorhthelm]

52% of the vote does not give 100% of the say if everyone wants it settled and the country to heal and move on.

Instead, totally vanquishing half of the country just leads to decades of division and acrimony.


We leave for sure, but we leave in a way that most can live with.

agree with that point, my problem is using the margin as a reason to rerun or cancel the result, when 50.1% was the accepted margin going into the vote. my view is the politicans should have made amends, they could have explained how the result wasnt actually practical, instead backed it (then voted against every damn deal, another issue). also the language like "vanquishing" hasnt helped.

 

[GT49er]

What you say makes zero sense. If you are a remainer you want to remain and so are against accepting a democratic vote that went against you.

Corrected for you. Do you have any argument (other than 'anybody who disagrees with me is a stupid, thick, old racist fascist') to genuinely refute that statement, in the context of any reasonable rational argument? You could try 48% is bigger than 52% but......................................maybe only a minority (about 48% if you're lucky) would agree with you.

 

[Lever]

Corrected for you. Do you have any argument (other than 'anybody who disagrees with me is a stupid, thick, old racist fascist') to genuinely refute that statement, in the context of any reasonable rational argument? You could try 48% is bigger than 52% but......................................maybe only a minority (about 48% if you're lucky) would agree with you.

... there's no doubt that 52% is bigger than 48% and that's what the voting breakdown was in the 2016 Referendum.
Are there other reasons for going ahead with this in any way the government chooses in 2019 regardless of the current breakdown?

 

[GT49er]

Could Johnson be on the brink of a decent Brexit deal ? Seems incredible.

Such a shame the mods didn't allow this thread to remain - lumping it into here just removed all chance of discussion and dumped it into this NSC remoainer (choose which you want)binfest.

 

[GT49er]

... there's no doubt that 52% is bigger than 48% and that's what the voting breakdown was in the 2016 Referendum.
Are there other reasons for going ahead with this in any way the government chooses in 2019?

Apart from having a second....and a third.......and a fourth referendum until the Westminster/Whitehall bubble elite get the 'right' result, the one they want? Does there need to be another reason (if you're the EU)?

 

[Lever]

Apart from having a second....and a third.......and a fourth referendum until the Westminster/Whitehall bubble elite get the 'right' result, the one they want? Does there need to be another reason (if you're the EU)?

Well there has to be more of a positive outcome than ones that simply rely on 2016 breakdown numbers....
Let's see...
'The easiest deal in history' No, sorry wrong
'Taking back control'.. a bit vague, and certainly debatable ...
'Frictionless trade' Nope
'Get Brexit done and move on' No... the horse trading begins (not ends) when we are out and we will be in a weaker position

No one knows what will happen - and so it looks like our major motivation is the 2016 Referendum breakdown and people claiming that the Westminster 'elite' are holding us back from the 'sunny uplands'.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

And that absolutely nails the crux of the whole matter. 48% of the voters in the UK - and a hefty majority on NSC - are incapable of understanding.


Anyway, now that the prominently remainer mods have merged yet another thread with this all-inclusive remainer love-in thread, I'm out again. Not worth the candle.............

You need to do some serious growing up.
Or are you pissed.

 

[Motogull]

Ok here is my prediction.

1) The ERG won't like this, but Parliament will vote this through on the basis of....

2) A second referendum in NI (after a technical delay) to give consent to staying in the Customs Union.

4) This eventually lead to the re-unification of Ireland and Northern Ireland, but not for a few years yet.

5) Very soon, a second Scottish referendum will take place which the Nationalists will win.

6) Scotland will successfully apply to re-join the EU.

7) England will be bordered on all sides eventually by the EU.

8) Leavers will claim that they knew exactly what they voted for and that was for an independent England with a Bank Holiday on St. Georges Day.

9) The Elgin Marbles will definitely stay in the British Museum.

Is 3 a secret?

 

[GT49er]

.....and people claiming that the Westminster 'elite' are holding us back from the 'sunny uplands'.

And you have a dream that they're not? Dream on.


And let the horse trading begin.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Is 3 a secret?

3 is the solution to Brexit that keeps everybody happy.

 

[GT49er]

Is 3 a secret?

No, it's even too fantastic for a remainer to even admit on a public website!