[Politics] Brexit

[Mellotron]

I understood we could revoke Article 50 but not extend it without EU agreement. Happy to be told I'm wrong.

My understanding is they are willing to extend it if it’s for the purposes of a further referendum. So I’m guessing that’s what these guys think will happen.

 

[cunning fergus]

In yesterday's Commons debate John Redwood (a man who I find it hard to warm to) said that Brexit was an opportunity to save 'air miles' on food imports. I'm not sure he realises that Europe is a bit nearer than most other places from which we might source our grub. Of course he could mean that we'll all be so impoverished by Brexit that we won't be able to afford such imports. As a generalisation as soon as Brexiteers start talking economics any layers of credibility are quickly shed.

The problem for pro EU enthusiasts like you that consider you have the high ground on economic credibility is the the structural weakness of the euro. The eurozone countries are currently teetering on the brink of another crisis. This is a crisis born out of the creation of the euro where political expediency trumped economic logic. It was and remains an ideological nirvana for many on the pro EU side despite its myriad of problems. I’m sure you don’t want to go through those, however as at the end of 2018 the ECB called an end to its QE programme which has pumped 2trn of euros into the European economy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46552147

As with all QE the rich and big business got richer while austerity bore down on the poor. Italy is the poster boy for this profound economic mismanagement and the chickens are gathering again.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i...ant-rescue-it-from-its-next-crisis-2018-06-11

https://www.politico.eu/article/here-comes-the-next-euro-crisis/

If the EU zealots could only take in and recognise the macro problems that they have created then the divisiveness of its consequences like Brexit could be understood in more sympathetic terms. I read recently even one of the architects of the euro now recognises it is a mistake, not least because the political will to create a single euro governance framework is not there.

Little wonder scepticism reigns.

 

[The Clamp]

Remainers have previously championed Soames as one of their own,snippets from him today


In my speech to this House on 6 December I made plain, and I do so again, that I was a staunch remainer, and I believe that our wonderful country has made an historically bad decision. I also believe very strongly that the decision that was made in the referendum of 2016 to leave the European Union must be honoured…………………………

I believe it would be quite wrong to postpone the article 50 deadline, and that the House must be prepared to earn the undying contempt of the country if it simply does not have the collective will, discipline and sense of duty to come to an agreement……………………


In my judgment, the outcome is plain and clear and staring us in the face, whatever might be our favourite solution. If the House votes against the one compromise proposal on the table, it will with absolute certainty be voting for chaos, with the outcome very likely to be the precise opposite of what it intended. I remind the House that this compromise is the only agreement on offer, and to try to reopen it risks losing even that………………


I conclude by saying again that I am deeply and genuinely sad that our extraordinary country has reached this sorry pass. I feel very strongly that we must not reject this agreement and thus descend into constitutional and, I am afraid, administrative chaos. I am very strongly against what would be a divisive, poisonous and hateful second referendum campaign, and I believe Parliament must do its duty here and now, and come to an agreement
Let us agree among ourselves. This country is not an island on its own; it is a proud nation, whose success has always been derived from the wider world. Our history and geography have given us great advantages. Our language is the way the world communicates. Our capital is one of the greatest cities in the world, and people in every other international and domestic forum listen to the views of this country because of our great experience and expertise. We really should have the confidence to press on, to cease this appalling and pointless arguing, much of it on the head of a pin, and to preserve and enhance the cohesion, unity and stability of our country. We are a humane, liberal-minded, tolerant, moderate nation, so let us now push on with the task at hand and show our electors and the world the kind of spirit and judgment they rightly expect from us.


Full speech




And Gove quoting Gardiner, saying the Labour brexit plan is bollox

He’s wrong.

 

[pastafarian]

Shame.
Another sneering comment at the end of your post; it does nothing to enhance your reputation or move debate forward.
Whatever brings the country together is in my opinion desperately needed now - not stupid, pointless insults.

Soames clearly thinks 'honouring the referendum' (itself an emotive term) is the way to take us forward together. It may be, but I doubt it.

He thinks this, not because he believes Brexit to be a good idea - but because of the menace underlying the alternative.

You call it democracy; I call it populism.

It’s the truth though, I have nothing but contempt for your belief and it should always be mocked.
Have a think for a second at what you have just said. You are saying that you doubt honouring a democratic vote is a good thing. Have a look in a mirror and repeat that to yourself over and over and try to work out why the vast majority of the British public would find that stance utterly alien. Honouring a democratic vote is by its very nature democracy, there is nothing populist about simply honouring democracy. You and the undemocratic loons giving you a thumbs up need to learn the basics.

 

[The Clamp]

...not so much pure triumphalism from the Brexiters now; for me, in recent days that has been the most poisonous, divisive aspect of the whole matter. We had our fair share on here, didn't we?

But this is his dilemma in a nutshell:
'I believe that our wonderful country has made an historically bad decision. I also believe very strongly that the decision that was made in the referendum of 2016 to leave the European Union must be honoured…………………………'

the paradox laid out clearly......

'historically bad decision' ...... presumably, in his view with monumentally bad outcomes; yet somehow Soames feels he must comply with that 'historically bad decision' in spite of its consequences for so many. Others agree with the first part of his comment but are fighting to prevent the inferred fallout which 'honouring the referendum' could bring.

He’s happy to let it happen because he’s minted enough for it not to affect him.

 

[The Clamp]

Cor, ark at little Lord Fonteroy.......getting all precious.

It’s Fauntleroy, you illiterate div.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It’s Fauntleroy, you illiterate div.

Hmmm .... I think 'div' stopped being an acceptable term in the 80s .... next you'll be calling some a spaz.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's ok we have a Psychic among us ( [MENTION=396]WATFORD zero[/MENTION] ) who has always said 100% it isn't going to happen. If only all the governments (plus businesses) across Europe would listen and stop spending billions/millions on preparing for it

Billions to hire 89 lorries for a couple of hours and a dredger for a couple of days ? Christ, prices must have risen. Maybe it's because of Brexit

You would have thought that with 76 days to go, the money could have been better spent on lorry parks, building systems to manage the new rates and rules, staff to operate all the new processes and systems etc etc

It's good to see that you aren't going to be duped so easily this time after

350M to the NHS
We will trigger Article 50 the next day
The easiest deal in History
The German car industry will insist on a deal
They need us more than we need them
We will definitely not pull the vote on TM's deal

got you every time.

 

[The Clamp]

Hmmm .... I think 'div' stopped being an acceptable term in the 80s .... next you'll be calling some a spaz.

Is div unacceptable? I’ll be honest I don’t even know what it’s etymology is.

 

[fanseagull]

It’s the truth though, I have nothing but contempt for your belief and it should always be mocked.
Have a think for a second at what you have just said. You are saying that you doubt honouring a democratic vote is a good thing. Have a look in a mirror and repeat that to yourself over and over and try to work out why the vast majority of the British public would find that stance utterly alien. Honouring a democratic vote is by its very nature democracy, there is nothing populist about simply honouring democracy. You and the undemocratic loons giving you a thumbs up need to learn the basics.

You are becoming a bit hysterical now..... telling me what I am saying. Give it a rest for while and think about how in practice the country will be able to reunite. I'll give you a clue... emotive rants against people who disagree with you, using language like 'contempt', 'mocked', 'alien', 'undemocratic loons' won't do it....

 

[WATFORD zero]

It’s the truth though, I have nothing but contempt for your belief and it should always be mocked.

You have contempt for somebody's belief.

Because, as has been pointed out numerous times throughout this thread, you don't know whether you want TM's deal, No deal, Norway +++, Canada or any other option, and you never have.

I wonder why that might be

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You are becoming a bit hysterical now..... telling me what I am saying. Give it a rest for while and think about how in practice the country will be able to reunite. I'll give you a clue... emotive rants against people who disagree with you, using language like 'contempt', 'mocked', 'alien', 'undemocratic loons' won't do it....

And another sure fire way not to unite the country is to call 52% of them 'thick', 'Little Englanders', 'xenophobic', 'racist' and even 'div'. You might want to look at your own remain house first.

Regardless, I'm interested in what you think would re-unite the country ? Given remain and leave are two such binary options it seems difficult anyone could find some common ground for a majority ..... as is currently being proven in the House of Commons.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You have contempt for somebody who has a belief

And that wasn't what he posted was it ?

 

[WATFORD zero]

And that wasn't what he posted was it ?

Happy now

 

[The Clamp]

It’s the truth though, I have nothing but contempt for your belief and it should always be mocked.
Have a think for a second at what you have just said. You are saying that you doubt honouring a democratic vote is a good thing. Have a look in a mirror and repeat that to yourself over and over and try to work out why the vast majority of the British public would find that stance utterly alien. Honouring a democratic vote is by its very nature democracy, there is nothing populist about simply honouring democracy. You and the undemocratic loons giving you a thumbs up need to learn the basics.

Calm down dear ��
What is going on with you! So angry.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Happy now

View attachment 103723

Well you are a stickler for accuracy. I see nothing wrong with having contempt for particular beliefs ..... I have contempt for the belief that any religion should tell you what you can or can't eat, or wear. I also have contempt for the belief that Zaha is a great player.

 

[pastafarian]

You are becoming a bit hysterical now..... telling me what I am saying. Give it a rest for while and think about how in practice the country will be able to reunite. I'll give you a clue... emotive rants against people who disagree with you, using language like 'contempt', 'mocked', 'alien', 'undemocratic loons' won't do it....

I can tell you what you said because that is what you said, you were very clear that you doubt honouring a democratic vote is the way forward..........that is one revolting belief system.

You have contempt for somebody's belief.

Because, as has been pointed out numerous times throughout this thread, you don't know whether you want TM's deal, No deal, Norway +++, Canada or any other option, and you never have.

I wonder why that might be

I do know what i want thanks.

Since you are the one with the crystal ball why not give us a prediction instead of just listing as many alternatives as you can think of.
Will we Leave the EU with a deal or Leave the EU without a deal?

 

[pastafarian]

Calm down dear ��
What is going on with you! So angry.

since you ask,Im quite angry at having spent all of my days so far this year going backwards and forwards visiting the hospital. Its mentally draining.
But brexit.......nah, not angry at all.........still laughing at all you loons and your backward views

 

[The Clamp]

since you ask,Im quite angry at having spent all of my days so far this year going backwards and forwards visiting the hospital. Its mentally draining.
But brexit.......nah, not angry at all.........still laughing at all you loons and your backward views

Genuinely sorry to hear that. I know how exhausting that can be.
All the best.
TC

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Blocking Brexit could cause far-right surge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46847169

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling told the Daily Mail that not leaving the EU would cause the 17 million people who voted for Brexit to feel "cheated".

Interesting use of the word cheated Mr Grayling. Which side cheated and has been proven to have cheated?

Beware the far-right surge. Project Fear?