[Politics] Brexit

[Buzzer]

Boris strikes again. Oh dear. Surely no-one in the Brexit camp is comfortable with the antics of this clown?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hnson-concedes-uk-will-have-to-pay-for-brexit

No. I never was. The overgrown schoolboy act is wearing very thin. Dreadful chancer.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You tell me what the issues are with it, apart from the clumsy segue into the Brexit departments legal bill, seems fine to me.

1.) Report caveats/disclaimers

'The analysis that follows is necessarily speculative. There are, as we pointed out repeatedly during the referendum campaign itself, no facts about the future'

'We do not claim to provide precise answers; nor do we attempt to be comprehensive Nevertheless, the stakes are so high that we consider informed speculation to be both necessary and important.'

Guardian Headline

No-deal Brexit would spawn 'legal morass and economic disaster'

Leaving the European Union without a deal in place would have, “widespread, damaging and pervasive” effects on Britain’s economy and legal system, a report says.

2.) The report also reguritates the project fear Treasury short term Shock scenario data to scare the horses even while admitting it was woefully inaccurate.

3.) The report conclusion states .. 'we set about the task with an open mind and in a spirit of enquiry.'

The UK in a Changing Europe

...Professor Anand Menon, who, Ms Kearney said, is Professor of European Politics at King’s College, London.

What she did not say is that her guest is not neutral about the EU. Far from it. He is also director of a think-tank called The UK in a Changing Europe which contains a raft of papers that, to put it mildly, are hugely critical of the Brexit case. The one about the Norway option, for example, is headed: ‘Norwegian model for the UK; oh really.’

Further digging yields that back in 1999 – when the entire European Commission of Jacques Santer was forced to resign because of a financial scandal – Menon wrote a long article for the London Review of Books defending the importance of the Commission and claiming that, in effect, the impropriety involved was inconsequential.

http://news-watch.co.uk/bbc-bias-a-progress-report/

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

good to see the numbers of EU migrants leaving ARE ON THE RISE .................. BYE BYE
regards
DR

 

[Baldseagull]

1.) Report caveats/disclaimers

'The analysis that follows is necessarily speculative. There are, as we pointed out repeatedly during the referendum campaign itself, no facts about the future'

'We do not claim to provide precise answers; nor do we attempt to be comprehensive Nevertheless, the stakes are so high that we consider informed speculation to be both necessary and important.'

Guardian Headline

No-deal Brexit would spawn 'legal morass and economic disaster'

Leaving the European Union without a deal in place would have, “widespread, damaging and pervasive” effects on Britain’s economy and legal system, a report says.

2.) The report also reguritates the project fear Treasury short term Shock scenario data to scare the horses even while admitting it was woefully inaccurate.

3.) The report conclusion states .. 'we set about the task with an open mind and in a spirit of enquiry.'

The UK in a Changing Europe

...Professor Anand Menon, who, Ms Kearney said, is Professor of European Politics at King’s College, London.

What she did not say is that her guest is not neutral about the EU. Far from it. He is also director of a think-tank called The UK in a Changing Europe which contains a raft of papers that, to put it mildly, are hugely critical of the Brexit case. The one about the Norway option, for example, is headed: ‘Norwegian model for the UK; oh really.’

Further digging yields that back in 1999 – when the entire European Commission of Jacques Santer was forced to resign because of a financial scandal – Menon wrote a long article for the London Review of Books defending the importance of the Commission and claiming that, in effect, the impropriety involved was inconsequential.

http://news-watch.co.uk/bbc-bias-a-progress-report/

1. The Guardian factually reports what the report said, I don't see a problem there
The report was not breaking new ground in claiming that there would be a big problem in leaving without a deal. It is as clear as day that no deal will create massive problems in many areas. Whatever the disclaimer says.

2. It may well have been inaccurate in regards to how things would look in the days after the vote, but it does not mean that it is inaccurate for how things would look in the days after a no deal Brexit.

3. It is possible for someone with a bias to look into matters with an open mind, we have to use our own judgement on whether they are being honest or not when they claim open mindedness.
I believe I looked into the pros and cons of Brexit with an open mind when the referendum was announced, but I started with the idea that it would probably make little difference, in or out, in the long run, so why go through all the upheaval, I became more pro EU over the course of my inquiries, even with it's faults.
I do not believe any pro Brexit minded person could look into the same matters and conclude that leaving without a deal would not create big problems in many areas. The pro Brexit response to this issue it seems, is to say that it would create big problems for the EU too, so it is in everyones interests for it not to happen, so it won't happen.



The last part you have added is, I assume, with a view to show that the Author is rabidly pro EU, I cannot access the entirety of what he actually said in defence of the commission, but from what I can see, it is a defence of the commissions role in the EU rather than of the few individuals guilty of nepotism. He does however point out that none of the commissioners were lining their own pockets, and that similar acts of favoritism were/are not uncommon in UK politics, with friends and relatives of MP's ending up on Quangos and in advisor roles, this is an attempt at diminishing the "crimes" of those individuals, but I think that comes from an over statement of the severity of their improprieties in the press.
On the face of it it seems entirely reasonable to ask a professor of European politics to explain the structure of the EU, the fact that the professor is pro EU does not change what the structure is.
The link you gave picks him up on saying that the EU is no more complex than any other system of governance; that the Commission is not made up of ‘unelected bureaucrats’; that the Parliament and the Council of Ministers acting in concert are a model of democracy in action; and that – although the Commission is the sole originator of EU legislation – this is a perfectly legitimate form of operations because it has the interests of Europe as its main objective.
I looked into the structure of the EU and I would not disagree too much with the professors judgement, and clearly what he has stated is in response to the very often reported statements in other media, of the opposite, so as far as balance goes, he was redressing it.

May I add, the link to a site you provide, and the source for the quotes about Menon, is quite a site, very upset about about bias, of the BBC mostly, in coverage of Brexit, Trump, Climate Change, immigration etc. I suspect there may be some right leaning guys behind this site concerned with impartiality.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

1. The Guardian factually reports what the report said, I don't see a problem there
The report was not breaking new ground in claiming that there would be a big problem in leaving without a deal. It is as clear as day that no deal will create massive problems in many areas. Whatever the disclaimer says.

2. It may well have been inaccurate in regards to how things would look in the days after the vote, but it does not mean that it is inaccurate for how things would look in the days after a no deal Brexit.

3. It is possible for someone with a bias to look into matters with an open mind, we have to use our own judgement on whether they are being honest or not when they claim open mindedness.
I believe I looked into the pros and cons of Brexit with an open mind when the referendum was announced, but I started with the idea that it would probably make little difference, in or out, in the long run, so why go through all the upheaval, I became more pro EU over the course of my inquiries, even with it's faults.
I do not believe any pro Brexit minded person could look into the same matters and conclude that leaving without a deal would not create big problems in many areas. The pro Brexit response to this issue it seems, is to say that it would create big problems for the EU too, so it is in everyones interests for it not to happen, so it won't happen.



The last part you have added is, I assume, with a view to show that the Author is rabidly pro EU, I cannot access the entirety of what he actually said in defence of the commission, but from what I can see, it is a defence of the commissions role in the EU rather than of the few individuals guilty of nepotism. He does however point out that none of the commissioners were lining their own pockets, and that similar acts of favoritism were/are not uncommon in UK politics, with friends and relatives of MP's ending up on Quangos and in advisor roles, this is an attempt at diminishing the "crimes" of those individuals, but I think that comes from an over statement of the severity of their improprieties in the press.
On the face of it it seems entirely reasonable to ask a professor of European politics to explain the structure of the EU, the fact that the professor is pro EU does not change what the structure is.
The link you gave picks him up on saying that the EU is no more complex than any other system of governance; that the Commission is not made up of ‘unelected bureaucrats’; that the Parliament and the Council of Ministers acting in concert are a model of democracy in action; and that – although the Commission is the sole originator of EU legislation – this is a perfectly legitimate form of operations because it has the interests of Europe as its main objective.
I looked into the structure of the EU and I would not disagree too much with the professors judgement, and clearly what he has stated is in response to the very often reported statements in other media, of the opposite, so as far as balance goes, he was redressing it.

May I add, the link to a site you provide, and the source for the quotes about Menon, is quite a site, very upset about about bias, of the BBC mostly, in coverage of Brexit, Trump, Climate Change, immigration etc. I suspect there may be some right leaning guys behind this site concerned with impartiality.

The Guardian didn't mention any of the caveats and portrayed speculative opinions as certainity. It didn't mention the anti Brexit bias of the think tank and the report used discredited data.

Shoddy journalism intent on giving it's readership exactly what they wanted to hear.

 

[jaghebby]

good to see the numbers of EU migrants leaving ARE ON THE RISE .................. BYE BYE
regards
DR

Probably because the pound is now practically on parity with the euro so they are leaving for economic reasons. So much for many leavers saying the euro is doomed and if brexit is a success (highly unlikely) and the economy expands, guess what, they will be back because the economy will demand it!

 

[Baldseagull]

The Guardian didn't mention any of the caveats and portrayed speculative opinions as certainity. It didn't mention the anti Brexit bias of the think tank and the report used discredited data.

Shoddy journalism intent on giving it's readership exactly what they wanted to hear.

Any prediction of what may happen in the future is speculative, but I would rate it as likely as Real Madrid finishing in the top half of La Liga, that leaving with no deal will bring massive problems. It would surprise me if you thought otherwise, and I don't believe you have a remain bias. As a leaver you would point out that it is very unlikely to be a no deal situation, rather than highlight the what if issues.
Theresa May unfortunately gave the scenario some weight, at least in peoples minds, by saying no deal is better than a bad deal. This was inevitably going to produce articles on how bad a no deal could be, and those keenest to produce them would inevitably be pro remain.

 

[The Clamp]

good to see the numbers of EU migrants leaving ARE ON THE RISE .................. BYE BYE
regards
DR

Reported. Deeply, unnecessarily offensive. A step too far.

 

[beorhthelm]

This was inevitably going to produce articles on how bad a no deal could be, and those keenest to produce them would inevitably be pro remain.

its not inevitable, its only because it continues the doom laden version of leaving, in some hope of abandonment through fear of this unlikly scenario. more rational columist and editors would be accepting the outcome looking at the best ways to carve a positve future. but hey, that doesnt sell papers or drive eyeballs does it? (or they arent rational)

 

[Two Professors]

Probably because the pound is now practically on parity with the euro so they are leaving for economic reasons. So much for many leavers saying the euro is doomed and if brexit is a success (highly unlikely) and the economy expands, guess what, they will be back because the economy will demand it!

The Euro in it's current form is doomed.How many billions of Euros is the ECB spending per month buying up useless debt?Germany,Holland,and maybe France will weather the storm,but the currency is way over-valued already for the smaller economies.The people leaving will just add to the EU's already massive levels of unemployment,as the winter tourism downturn arrives.Please return to you slumbers.

 

[WATFORD zero]

good to see the numbers of EU migrants leaving ARE ON THE RISE .................. BYE BYE
regards
DR

If every EU migrant left Britain it still wouldn't make you any more employable

 

[studio150]

its not inevitable, its only because it continues the doom laden version of leaving, in some hope of abandonment through fear of this unlikly scenario. more rational columist and editors would be accepting the outcome looking at the best ways to carve a positve future. but hey, that doesnt sell papers or drive eyeballs does it? (or they arent rational)

Sells copies of the Mail and Express to those that are not looking at the realistic outcome but continuing say everything is going to be wonderful

 

[vegster]

Maybe it's time for the thread to be locked altogether by the mods if the supposed bullying of posters has got this bad. MODS

Valid point, the problem is that it is such an emotive and polarising debate frustrations boil over. I found that putting 2-3 of the worst offenders on " Ignore " was immensely liberating.

 

[nicko31]

Reported. Deeply, unnecessarily offensive. A step too far.

Xenophobic at best

The reality is it's not just EU nationals departing our shores we are starting to see a brain drain of our own

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...test-eu-referendum-fears-racism-a7914606.html

Pretty sad state of affairs

 

[Two Professors]

Can't wait for the 'I'm going anywhere but Britain,but I'm so full of crap I'm not really going' -drain to start.Might clear the air a bit more!Isn't it strange,after a thousand years of staying put,Brits are emigrating?

 

[nicko31]

The Euro in it's current form is doomed.How many billions of Euros is the ECB spending per month buying up useless debt?Germany,Holland,and maybe France will weather the storm,but the currency is way over-valued already for the smaller economies.The people leaving will just add to the EU's already massive levels of unemployment,as the winter tourism downturn arrives.Please return to you slumbers.

How long till we hit parity against the Euro? Those planes for that aircraft carrier are getting more expensive by the day

 

[Two Professors]

Then it's a good job nobody in the EU has modern naval aircraft worth buying!The planes are coming from the USA.
Wonder when the 'Dopey-Drain' starts?

 

[nicko31]

Then it's a good job nobody in the EU has modern naval aircraft worth buying!The planes are coming from the USA.
Wonder when the 'Dopey-Drain' starts?

Sorry bud we're in the doldrums against the USD as well

 

[jaghebby]

The Euro in it's current form is doomed.How many billions of Euros is the ECB spending per month buying up useless debt?Germany,Holland,and maybe France will weather the storm,but the currency is way over-valued already for the smaller economies.The people leaving will just add to the EU's already massive levels of unemployment,as the winter tourism downturn arrives.Please return to you slumbers.

They are leaving employment here for unemployment over there well that assertion just makes no sense what so ever. Just shows how ludicrous most leavers opinions are!

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

 

[Two Professors]

Sorry bud we're in the doldrums against the USD as well

If you think the USA will not give us a really good deal on those planes,then you have no idea whatsoever on global strategic 'Realpolitik',and should just comment on camp-fires and singing Kumbaya!