[Politics] Brexit

[daveinprague]

You are confusing patriotism with realism.

No, our massive manufacturing, and industrial base will see us through.

 

[Jim in the West]

You mean he isn't convinced that all flights to and from Europe will stop overnight at some unspecified future date? (it probably was going to be, I think, firstly the day after the referendum, then the day after Article 50, now postponed until 2019.......a bit like the Jehovah's Witnesses certainties for the end of the world. And Old Moore's Almanack). I thought he regarded that as an absolute certainty!

Just to clarify the "no planes" point. The issue is - if we don't do a deal with the EU, then the planes WILL stop flying. There are lots of other very significant risks and consequences, but perhaps the cessation of flights would be the most symbolic outcome of our new found isolation from Europe, post-Brexit. For obvious reasons it would be political suicide for anyone to preside over a situation which leads to a no flights scenario. My point has been that - given what's at stake - as soon as we triggered Article 50 we gave pretty much all the bargaining chips to the EU. Those in charge of this sorry situation decided to put their faith in the willingness of the other side (the EU) to cave in. They somehow think that the desire to continue selling BMWs in the UK is more important to the Germans than the integrity of the EU project.

Fortunately, most of the cabinet now realise the enormity of the decisions they have taken, and are desperately trying to find some sort of face-saving compromise. They are, of course, petrified of having to put this new scenario to the democratic test and therefore want everything sorted by 2022. We now live in a situation where an advisory referendum (on an extremely complex issue, where pretty much every statement (on either side) was a lie or partial truth) is more important than parliamentary votes and general elections. Brexiteers accuse Remainers of being undemocratic because they somehow believe we don't accept the referendum result. That isn't the point - we've had the referendum, and my personal objective is to work (democratically) to try to change people's mind. I believe that a large number of people who voted Leave did so as a protest against a whole range of inequalities which are NOT caused by the EU, and will in all likelihood be considerably worsened by our departure.

Hope that sets the record straight!

 

[cunning fergus]

Nobody wants to damage the country. That is why many voted to remain. Still, we got the sovereignty back that we never lost in the first place.

Nicely put, and all the more ironic given that your adopted country and those around it were given a hard lesson in what national sovereignty truly means by being in the EU only this week.

http://in.reuters.com/article/europe-migrants-slovakia-hungary-idINKBN1AB0Z2

For the generations of these countries that previously lived under the soviet bloc, no doubt they can reflect on the kind of freedom they have in the EU. Some happy memories I expect.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Patriotism the last refuge of a scoundrel

It is indeed a strange kind of patriot that would not vigorously defend the bedrock of our country, (democracy). And would instead lend support to the detractors that would seek to undermine and overturn that process in an underhand way.
Its even stranger those individuals claiming to be patriots who have openly declared they wish the country harm and actually wish the economy to implode in their own country…..all so they can say told you so,can we please change our mind now ……..that is a special special type of patriot.

Also worth noting these special type of Patriots are not even representative of Remain voters who have mainly accepted the result. But they do like to suggest they speak for all. Didn't one of these 'Patriots' even say they would prefer we were ruled by Germans? .. no wonder they are such a fan of the EU #cheapshot

 

[Jim in the West]

Also worth noting these special type of Patriots are not even representative of Remain voters who have mainly accepted the result. But they do like to suggest they speak for all. Didn't one of these 'Patriots' even say they would prefer we were ruled by Germans? .. no wonder they are such a fan of the EU #cheapshot

Guilty as charged, your honour!

My point was that the German government seems to know how to govern, whilst ours doesn't. I don't really care about the nationality of those who govern me, as long as they have the best interests of the people at heart. Our current government is more interested their own personal vendettas than doing what's right for the country.

And I know she only has a symbolic role, but the Queen is basically German, and we don't have a problem with her.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Guilty as charged, your honour!

My point was that the German government seems to know how to govern, whilst ours doesn't. I don't really care about the nationality of those who govern me, as long as they have the best interests of the people at heart. Our current government is more interested their own personal vendettas than doing what's right for the country.

And I know she only has a symbolic role, but the Queen is basically German, and we don't have a problem with her.

Quite. We've got our country back but it's governed by the most incompetent and pathetic bunch of ministers in a life time. Better to outsource it to folk who can do a decent job and who put the people first.

 

[5ways]

It's only the worlds biggest single market with us in it which should tell you something.

Remoaners do ignore it but they haven't got enough influence to block it.

Tells me we're stronger together.

 

[nicko31]

Just to clarify the "no planes" point. The issue is - if we don't do a deal with the EU, then the planes WILL stop flying. There are lots of other very significant risks and consequences, but perhaps the cessation of flights would be the most symbolic outcome of our new found isolation from Europe, post-Brexit. For obvious reasons it would be political suicide for anyone to preside over a situation which leads to a no flights scenario. My point has been that - given what's at stake - as soon as we triggered Article 50 we gave pretty much all the bargaining chips to the EU. Those in charge of this sorry situation decided to put their faith in the willingness of the other side (the EU) to cave in. They somehow think that the desire to continue selling BMWs in the UK is more important to the Germans than the integrity of the EU project.

Fortunately, most of the cabinet now realise the enormity of the decisions they have taken, and are desperately trying to find some sort of face-saving compromise. They are, of course, petrified of having to put this new scenario to the democratic test and therefore want everything sorted by 2022. We now live in a situation where an advisory referendum (on an extremely complex issue, where pretty much every statement (on either side) was a lie or partial truth) is more important than parliamentary votes and general elections. Brexiteers accuse Remainers of being undemocratic because they somehow believe we don't accept the referendum result. That isn't the point - we've had the referendum, and my personal objective is to work (democratically) to try to change people's mind. I believe that a large number of people who voted Leave did so as a protest against a whole range of inequalities which are NOT caused by the EU, and will in all likelihood be considerably worsened by our departure.

Hope that sets the record straight!

Yes the disenfranchised lashed out, the EU was just a convienient scapegoat to get themselves heard and there is a danger of a spectacular own goal. Then there's old people, now that's different conversation

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Its even stranger those individuals claiming to be patriots who have openly declared they wish the country harm and actually wish the economy to implode in their own country…..all so they can say told you so,can we please change our mind now ……..that is a special special type of patriot.

You misinterpret what people meant, I suppose intentionally. Serious economic problems are coming, especially if we have the sort of Brexit the ultras and assorted fetishists want. Like many, I would rather the inevitable shit hit the fan sooner rather than later, when it will be too late to do anything about it. The headless chickens running the government are obsessed with getting us out before their sisters come home to roost.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Guilty as charged, your honour!

My point was that the German government seems to know how to govern, whilst ours doesn't. I don't really care about the nationality of those who govern me, as long as they have the best interests of the people at heart. Our current government is more interested their own personal vendettas than doing what's right for the country.

And I know she only has a symbolic role, but the Queen is basically German, and we don't have a problem with her.

If you think allowing close to a million refugees (economic migrants?) into your country.. mostly male .. many from a war zone/home to ISIS , with no idea about their backgrounds is 'knowing how to govern' then good luck to you. Reigniting support for the Far right in Germany ... what could possibly go wrong.



Insulting the Queen another trait of your patriotic credentials?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Quite. We've got our country back but it's governed by the most incompetent and pathetic bunch of ministers in a life time. Better to outsource it to folk who can do a decent job and who put the people first.

Oh come along you love pathetic and incompetent politicians ...

 

[ManOfSussex]

I saw the current, actual, completely useless Home Secretary Amber Rudd in Hastings Old Town at lunchtime as it's Hastings Old Town Carnival week and she's got to focus on the plebs and civic duties in her constituency she won last month by crying.

She even walks like a clueless Tory toff numpty too as well as sounding like one. The sooner she's charged by The RSPCA for what she does to other peoples dogs, the better. Nice haircut though - that'll be on expenses - she loves expenses does Amber.

 

[studio150]

Excellent news for leavers from this Economist comment

Softest Brexit will only reduce trade by 20% over 10% and the hardest Brexit would be 40% and cut annual income per person by 2.6%.

Happy times and a real bargain in getting our country back


http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21725314-long-government-stays-denial-about-brexits-drawbacks-country-course

 

[ManOfSussex]

Excellent news for leavers from this Economist comment

Softest Brexit will only reduce trade by 20% over 10% and the hardest Brexit would be 40% and cut annual income per person by 2.6%.

Happy times and a real bargain in getting our country back


http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21725314-long-government-stays-denial-about-brexits-drawbacks-country-course

Project fear/would have happened anyway/we couldn't carry on as we were/I lived in Luton/a price worth paying/remoaner/Just rejoice at that news and congratulate our Forces and the Marines....etc.

 

[Berty23]

I don't get why so many leavers assume all remainers are lovers of Corbyn. I would bet good money that he voted to leave. And we know that the vast majority of Tory MPs voted to stay. This is not left vs right, it is centrist vs the more extreme ends right and left. It is genuinely scary how the EU is blamed for things nothing to do with them as this just gives rise to scary nationalism. People are so unwilling to admit that they are wrong that we will go down this route until we are truly screwed and anyone who thinks that poorer people won't be hurt most has no idea. Scary times ahead.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Even Michael Heseltine (Europhile/remoaner/both) is the one constantly pointing out to his fellow Tory numpty's that all Brexit is going to do is ***k this country, allow Johnny Foreigner to stitch us up good-and-proper and put Corbyn in No.10. Never mind. Democratic will of the people and leave voters knew exactly what they were voting for and all that......

 

[larus]

Quite. We've got our country back but it's governed by the most incompetent and pathetic bunch of ministers in a life time. Better to outsource it to folk who can do a decent job and who put the people first.

Yeah, right. Probably the same type of people that run the German car companies I assume and are quite happy to pollute the atmosphere more that the tests show.

Or the same type of people who are happy to see fellow EU citizens (Greeks) struggle on poverty (real poverty unlike that which so many bleat on about in this country) because they don't want to do what needs to be done to make the Euro workable which is fiscal transfers (which is what happens within the UK to make Sterling work). Those Germans who run a huge trade surplus yet can't seem to see the stupidity of their comments about trade deficits being wrong.

 

[Jim in the West]

Insulting the Queen another trait of your patriotic credentials?

I may have the wrong end of the stick, but if you think calling someone "German" is an insult, then I think you need to withdraw that quickly....

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I may have the wrong end of the stick, but if you think calling someone "German" is an insult, then I think you need to withdraw that quickly....

Au contraire following your reasoning UK Olympic hero Mo Farah is basically a Somalian.. which would be considered a tad racist in certain Islington dinner parties.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Excellent news for leavers from this Economist comment

Softest Brexit will only reduce trade by 20% over 10% and the hardest Brexit would be 40% and cut annual income per person by 2.6%.

Happy times and a real bargain in getting our country back


http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21725314-long-government-stays-denial-about-brexits-drawbacks-country-course

Ah the Economist an Impeccable source for relaible forecasts .. almost as good as the FT.

They expected a contraction of 1% in 2017 (compared with 1.8% growth previously) as a slump in domestic demand pulls the economy into recession. UK GDP is on course to grow 1.9% in 2017. No contraction. No recession.

They forecast the number of those in work to fall by hundreds of thousands. More people are in work than ever…

They gloomily forecast a rapid deterioration in the fiscal position, falling tax revenues, increasing unemployment. None of which happened…

They predicted the US Federal Reserve would have to hold interest rates. The Fed raised rates.

The EIU predicted anxiety-driven declines in world stock markets, “When an event promises to strip 6% of GDP from the fifth-biggest economy in the world, it is harder for the rest of the global economy to grow as quickly.” Brexit “will ensure that the global economy continues to underperform its potential for at least another two years”. World stock markets have rallied strongly post-Brexit.

https://order-order.com/2017/06/23/the-economist-lack-of-intelligence-unit/