[Politics] Brexit

[The Clamp]

A sad, regrettable and wholly avoidable mess.

Which makes it so sad. A pantomime whereby Cameron shut down his opposition and dissenters and made it look like the will of the people. And now we all suffer.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

For anyone who loves this country, as I do, It's tragic to see what is happening to it right now. Tearing itself apart, probably going to lose long established unions like Scotland, rise of the right wing, rise of racism, no strong leaders, the leaders that did this ran off, we are now in the weakest trading position we have faced in history, the likes of the US and China are going to crucify us in trade deals, we will likely be set adrift with no deals with Europe in place or very one sided at best.
Labour is a joke, May is an innefectual default PM, Farage was partly responsible for conning a small majority into landing us in this state and now he's a laughing stock across the pond and in Europe.
Anyone that thinks a conservative government is going to restore manafacturing in the U.K. is deluded, they were the ones that systematically dismantled it in the 70's and 80's. they don't care it'll be cheap Chinese steel all the way. The withdrawal of EU funding that once propped up
our industry will see the few remaining strongholds of UK manufacturing wither and die.
What a mess. And it's a legacy decision so there's no way out of it for decades.

Very much this. I've had 4 different nationalities ask me what the **** are you doing to yourselves in the past 24 hours. It's a muddled, incoherent mess. Utterly embarrassing. And it's not so much the decision, more the inept and chaotic muddled planning.

 

[The Clamp]

Suggest a 2nd Referendum and 'Leavers' become apoplectic.
Obviously, they have no confidence in winning it.
The way the Tories rolled this out was pretty lame really, and will cause decades of problems imo

Quite. Don't even need a second referendum, just a few key figures to have some balls, enact the constitution whereby a referendum is absolutely not legally binding and in fact just an advisory poll that has been dressed up as inevitable.

Riding roughshod over the British constitution is not democracy.

 

[The Clamp]

Very much this. I've had 4 different nationalities ask me what the **** are you doing to yourselves in the past 24 hours. It's a muddled, incoherent mess. Utterly embarrassing. And it's not so much the decision, more the inept and chaotic muddled planning.

and getting more muddled with each passing day.

 

[Baldseagull]

Not sure Jim you would really appreciate any response from brexiters all over again regarding your concerns.

How about we pass this over to some legitimate real remainers for their input instead.

[MENTION=12947]Lincoln Imp[/MENTION] [MENTION=20527]studio150[/MENTION] [MENTION=23343]Baldseagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] [MENTION=25549]5ways[/MENTION]

Can you boys help a brother out?
Because there will no longer be any flights from the UK to Europe or Europe to the UK post brexit Jim is worried our big footy clubs will need to diversify and have two teams like Chelsea UK and Chelsea EU if they wish to compete in The Champions League as the inevitable long coach journeys are impractical for the UK branch of the club. ( not sure which domestic league Chelsea EU are competing in but we can iron out little things like that later)

Anything you boys can say to reassure him or even if appropriate, confirm his worries?
Could he fly for example to another non EU country and then fly into Europe to circumnavigate the direct ban on cross border flights or are those airlines in other non EU countries getting canned post brexit too (oops soz about that, should have thought things through), or maybe sneak into France with the help of the resistance and then get an internal EU flight….or will that be just too impractical, especially if it’s a whole squad going in cognito dressed in orange tracksuits?

Poor old Jim in the west has raised his concerns but the lawyers, consultants, staff at DfT, and airline industry experts are all ignoring him for some baffling reason.

So come on chaps don’t leave a brother hanging. Show him you care and help out.

Jim's fears become reality if May ends up with the "no deal" option. Which is why we will have to have a deal of some sort, and May saying no deal is better than a bad deal is either madness or bluster, if she walks away with nothing, we are in a legal void with no customs designation. It will not just be flights, and it won't just be the EU that we can't send goods to or import from. This is a shit situation for the EU too, so an extension to negotiations and us either remaining members, or agreeing a transitional deal, one where we are still compliant to EU laws and paying fees, probably without the rebate, will go on till the next election, when the decisive battle over Brexit will be fought.
My reckoning is that most of the appetite for leaving will have evaporated by the next election, and the Tories will find themselves in a tricky position. Will they maintain the push for Brexit, or revert to traditional policy and campaign on a manifesto that will keep us in the EU?
I could be wrong and the desire to leave is strengthened, with UKIP no doubt shouting about the EU punishing us, we may then elect a leave at any cost party and bail out, invoking Jims scenario of having no legal framework to enable cross border transactions.
I know the leave response to all the bad possibilities is "well it will be bad for everyone, so everyone will work to avoid it" but wars are generally bad for everyone, and for most of history in Europe, we have not had much luck in avoiding those.

 

[The Clamp]

Jolly refreshing to see some truths being spoken rather than the head in the sand "we're leaving it'll all be brilliant" guff thrown out by the leavers on here.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Jim's fears become reality if May ends up with the "no deal" option. Which is why we will have to have a deal of some sort, and May saying no deal is better than a bad deal is either madness or bluster, if she walks away with nothing, we are in a legal void with no customs designation. It will not just be flights, and it won't just be the EU that we can't send goods to or import from. This is a shit situation for the EU too, so an extension to negotiations and us either remaining members, or agreeing a transitional deal, one where we are still compliant to EU laws and paying fees, probably without the rebate, will go on till the next election, when the decisive battle over Brexit will be fought.
My reckoning is that most of the appetite for leaving will have evaporated by the next election, and the Tories will find themselves in a tricky position. Will they maintain the push for Brexit, or revert to traditional policy and campaign on a manifesto that will keep us in the EU?
I could be wrong and the desire to leave is strengthened, with UKIP no doubt shouting about the EU punishing us, we may then elect a leave at any cost party and bail out, invoking Jims scenario of having no legal framework to eonable cross border transactions.
I know the leave response to all the bad possibilities is "well it will be bad for everyone, so everyone will work to avoid it" but wars are generally bad for everyone, and for most of history in Europe, we have not had much luck in avoiding those.

Which is nonsense from Farage. The EU will use all their strength and nouse to get the best deal for them (and for me).....just like the UK will. If the EU isn't fighting my corner I'll be pretty disappointed; they have to flex their muscles and get the best deal....again just like the UK has to. And If the UK gets a good deal I won't be claiming you have punished us.

 

[Baldseagull]

A very interesting 'Dispatches' programme last night.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/65225-001

I think the program missed the other issue regarding workers in the NHS, it is not just those from the EU that no longer wish to come here, and those that have been here being more likely to leave, but UK born and trained staff that are heading overseas, particularly Australia and Canada.
When working conditions become even tougher, more will look to the good salaries and better conditions they could be working under overseas.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Suggest a 2nd Referendum and 'Leavers' become apoplectic.
Obviously, they have no confidence in winning it.
The way the Tories rolled this out was pretty lame really, and will cause decades of problems imo

you cant help but think that the only way we are in this mess is that cameron's hand was forced into a referendum by silage, sorry farage, to finally shut up the eurosceptics in HIS party, and he didn't think for one minute the great tolerant british public would actually agree with the likes of Boris, Gove and farrige - how wrong he was....Its one big ****up and in three years time, no-one has the faintest idea where we will be, who will be our trading partners, if we need visas to go to Europe, will duty apply to our goods in an out of the EU and of course, we have been told by a megalomaniac racist misogynist that he really likes us and we can trade more with him....wooopeeee

 

[Lincoln Imp]

For anyone who loves this country, as I do, It's tragic to see what is happening to it right now. Tearing itself apart, probably going to lose long established unions like Scotland, rise of the right wing, rise of racism, no strong leaders, the leaders that did this ran off, we are now in the weakest trading position we have faced in history, the likes of the US and China are going to crucify us in trade deals, we will likely be set adrift with no deals with Europe in place or very one sided at best.
Labour is a joke, May is an innefectual default PM, Farage was partly responsible for conning a small majority into landing us in this state and now he's a laughing stock across the pond and in Europe.
Anyone that thinks a conservative government is going to restore manafacturing in the U.K. is deluded, they were the ones that systematically dismantled it in the 70's and 80's. they don't care it'll be cheap Chinese steel all the way. The withdrawal of EU funding that once propped up
our industry will see the few remaining strongholds of UK manufacturing wither and die.
What a mess. And it's a legacy decision so there's no way out of it for decades.

I doubt if there is anything coherent the Brexiteers on here can come up with to counter this although I expect they're revving up the invective (cowards, moaners and traitors categories) right now.

Most supporters of the Labour Party, the Lib Dems and other minority parties did not vote for the mess (and nor did large number of Tory voters) and yet it seems beyond the wit an courage of more than a few politicians to stand up for what they believe in, discharge their duty of national care and consider the creation of a political alliance to at least carry the battle onwards.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

For anyone who loves this country, as I do, It's tragic to see what is happening to it right now. Tearing itself apart, probably going to lose long established unions like Scotland, rise of the right wing, rise of racism, no strong leaders, the leaders that did this ran off, we are now in the weakest trading position we have faced in history, the likes of the US and China are going to crucify us in trade deals, we will likely be set adrift with no deals with Europe in place or very one sided at best.
Labour is a joke, May is an innefectual default PM, Farage was partly responsible for conning a small majority into landing us in this state and now he's a laughing stock across the pond and in Europe.
Anyone that thinks a conservative government is going to restore manafacturing in the U.K. is deluded, they were the ones that systematically dismantled it in the 70's and 80's. they don't care it'll be cheap Chinese steel all the way. The withdrawal of EU funding that once propped up
our industry will see the few remaining strongholds of UK manufacturing wither and die.
What a mess. And it's a legacy decision so there's no way out of it for decades.

Totally agree with this and not because I want to score points against Leave voters as I think most of them will suffer more from this than me and it will give me no pleasure to see it.

The depressing thing is that a majority of MPs think that this is verging on suicide (or at the extreme end of the risk scale) but seem paralysed by the choice between their responsibility to act in what they view as the best interests of the country, their poilitical ambition, and their swallowing of the idea presented by certain parts of the media and the right of the Conservative Party that a simple and very close binary vote on EU membership was a total endorsement of a hard version of Brexit that would only have been considered by those on the margins of British politics 12 months ago. They may have a tough explaining their actions to their grandchildren.

Anyway the Leavers have won the ‘phoney war ‘ is over; they are the ‘establishment’ now. They have made it clear that they don’t want us moaners involved in the process and can sort this out themselves. They may find that solutions are rather harder to find than scapegoats.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Anyway the Leavers have won the ‘phoney war ‘ is over; they are the ‘establishment’ now. They have made it clear that they don’t want us moaners involved in the process and can sort this out themselves. They may find that solutions are rather harder to find than scapegoats.

They've got their country back. Well, the bits and pieces that are left.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I think the program missed the other issue regarding workers in the NHS, it is not just those from the EU that no longer wish to come here, and those that have been here being more likely to leave, but UK born and trained staff that are heading overseas, particularly Australia and Canada.
When working conditions become even tougher, more will look to the good salaries and better conditions they could be working under overseas.

Very true.

There was the tragic irony of The A&E department closing at night due to staff shortages, in a hospital in the home town of Margaret Thatcher, a place that voted nearly 60% leave too.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

On our way out.

all that huff and puff from the REMOANERS has got them nowhere , yet somehow they were deluded in thinking they could get away with it (second referendum ) ................ CLEGG, FARRON , LUCAS
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Suggest a 2nd Referendum and 'Leavers' become apoplectic.
Obviously, they have no confidence in winning it.
The way the Tories rolled this out was pretty lame really, and will cause decades of problems imo

YOU DONT LIVE IN THE UK
regards
DR

 

[studio150]

For anyone who loves this country, as I do, It's tragic to see what is happening to it right now. Tearing itself apart, probably going to lose long established unions like Scotland, rise of the right wing, rise of racism, no strong leaders, the leaders that did this ran off, we are now in the weakest trading position we have faced in history, the likes of the US and China are going to crucify us in trade deals, we will likely be set adrift with no deals with Europe in place or very one sided at best.
Labour is a joke, May is an innefectual default PM, Farage was partly responsible for conning a small majority into landing us in this state and now he's a laughing stock across the pond and in Europe.
Anyone that thinks a conservative government is going to restore manafacturing in the U.K. is deluded, they were the ones that systematically dismantled it in the 70's and 80's. they don't care it'll be cheap Chinese steel all the way. The withdrawal of EU funding that once propped up
our industry will see the few remaining strongholds of UK manufacturing wither and die.
What a mess. And it's a legacy decision so there's no way out of it for decades.

And yet we are just supposed to sit back smile, say how everything is wonderful and not mention anything that will probably leave us worse off.
Having watched Mrs May's statement to the house earlier today it did not fill me with confidence that we are going to get anything other than a deal which will leave us worse off than we are now, and it could even be significantly worse than the one we have now.

We shall see but at this stage I believe that the scrutiny that Parliament will have on the proposed deal will be no more than a take it or we leave with no deal, as opposed to any meaningful amendments.

Depressing and no likelihood of the gloom being lifted any time soon.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Jolly refreshing to see some truths being spoken rather than the head in the sand "we're leaving it'll all be brilliant" guff thrown out by the leavers on here.

yep......... everything YOU WANT TO HEAR
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

and yet we are just supposed to sit back smile, say how everything is wonderful and not mention anything that will probably leave us worse off.
Having watched mrs may's statement to the house earlier today it did not fill me with confidence that we are going to get anything other than a deal which will leave us worse off than we are now, and it could even be significantly worse than the one we have now.

We shall see but at this stage i believe that the scrutiny that parliament will have on the proposed deal will be no more than a take it or we leave with no deal, as opposed to any meaningful amendments.

Depressing and no likelihood of the gloom being lifted any time soon.

seen anywhere in the EU that floats your boat
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I doubt if there is anything coherent the Brexiteers on here can come up with to counter this although I expect they're revving up the invective (cowards, moaners and traitors categories) right now.

Most supporters of the Labour Party, the Lib Dems and other minority parties did not vote for the mess (and nor did large number of Tory voters) and yet it seems beyond the wit an courage of more than a few politicians to stand up for what they believe in, discharge their duty of national care and consider the creation of a political alliance to at least carry the battle onwards.

SO WHO WERE THE 52% that voted out
regards
DR

 

[brighton fella]

By definition this is not aimed at me but as a centrist Remainer can I just say I support the wishes of all countries to express their identities and live peaceful lives in our interconnected world. This is true of all nations, including those of the UK.

Having said that, there are issues, as we all know, over the direction English nationalism has often taken. It has sometimes seemed inseparable from the ranting aggression of the marching skinheads. I was looking at a remote country church the other week, with the flag of St George fluttering on the tower. It was all so lovely and I felt rather sad that that simple image has been misappropriated. It shouldn't be this way and if the spirit of England can be invoked in gentler ways then I would be all for it. Viva England.

I can tell you that most people do not see the flag in this light, only people who are totally obsessed by the word nationalism and relate nationalism to a bunch of hate filled skinheads see the flag in this light.no one else does Labour's Emily Thornberry is a perfect example..
Whenever i see the St George flag flying at full mask i get a great sense of pride.. knuckle dragging skinheads never enter my head.