[Politics] Brexit

[The Clamp]

i agreed with lincoln imp about tory infighting and neutralise UKIP.
If you feel im lying about public opinion wanting a referendum feel free to link all those polls that show the majority of the public had no appetite for one

I don't think you're lying that the public had an appetite for a referendum. I think you're making it up that it was part of the reason we had one. That's all, you can go back to accusing everyone else of lying now.

 

[pastafarian]

I don't think you're lying that the public had an appetite for a referendum. I think you're making it up that it was part of the reason we had one. That's all, you can go back to accusing everyone else of lying now.

right oh.......because in your world politicians simply ignore entirely the mood of the public on specific issues

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I don't think you're lying that the public had an appetite for a referendum. I think you're making it up that it was part of the reason we had one. That's all, you can go back to accusing everyone else of lying now.

huge turn out on the night, yes you're right no one was really interested
regards
DR

 

[The Clamp]

right oh.......because in your world politicians simply ignore entirely the mood of the public on specific issues

I'm going by the fact that the public voted to leave. Dave didn't anticipate the country would vote that way. Therefore I don't think he thought the country wanted a referendum, therefore I don't think that factored into his decision to hold a referendum.

 

[The Clamp]

huge turn out on the night, yes you're right no one was really interested
regards
DR

When did I say nobody was interested?
You make it up as you go along you do. Shhh.
regards
TC

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

When did I say nobody was interested?
You make it up as you go along you do. Shhh.
regards
TC

a bit like you then
regards
DR

 

[The Clamp]

a bit like you then
regards
DR

Why don't you go back to digging that hole you started over on the mental health thread?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Why don't you go back to digging that hole you started over on the mental health thread?

yet again you jumped in with a thumbs up............. look a bit further down that thread
regards
DR

 

[The Clamp]

yet again you jumped in with a thumbs up............. look a bit further down that thread
regards
DR

Yes, I saw you take the piss then backtrack when you were called out.
Anyway, I don't wish to discuss anything with you.
Go away.
regards
TC

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Yes, I saw you take the piss then backtrack when you were called out.
regards
TC

you goon, you're talking to someone who had 16 years of mental health dealings from his ex
regards
DR

 

[The Clamp]

you goon, you're talking to someone who had 16 years of mental health dealings from his ex
regards
DR

No, I'm not
Tatty Bye
regards
TC

 

[beorhthelm]

What gives you exclusive inside knowledge? It's pretty obvious why Cameron called it and it's not for the reasons you are lying about.

the bill for the referendum was backed 544 to 53 (SNP against). all sides thought it would settle the matter, and it was clearly a widely contentious subject, really dont see why after the result anyone can question this.

 

[The Clamp]

the bill for the referendum was backed 544 to 53 (SNP against). all sides thought it would settle the matter, and it was clearly a widely contentious subject, really dont see why after the result anyone can question this.

I'm not questioning it. Don't think anyone is. Are they?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

No, I'm not
Tatty Bye
regards
TC

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
regards
DR

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'm going by the fact that the public voted to leave. Dave didn't anticipate the country would vote that way. Therefore I don't think he thought the country wanted a referendum, therefore I don't think that factored into his decision to hold a referendum.

It might be more accurate to say that Cameron didn't think the country wanted to vote Leave. He knew there was an appetite for a vote but misjudged the public mood.
Many Remain voters are still looking for someone to blame for the result. Perhaps consider the logic on reform applied pre Referendum. Cameron and the EU proposed reforms which did not meet the requirements of a majority of the voters. It was a big misjudgement.

 

[Seagull58]

Interesting view. Most governments would set an inflation target of 2% if they already had inflation of 4% as, inflation is a BAD THING. bear in mind we had inflation at only 0.3% only 9 months ago. I think you need to realise that the bank of England 2% inflation " Target" is in fact aspirational.

Inflation is not a "bad thing".If it was the Bank of England and the Government would not target 2%. Deflation is worse. Much of hte world,including hte UK, had deflation for 20 years after the first world war. The Great Depression.

 

[nicko31]

It might be more accurate to say that Cameron didn't think the country wanted to vote Leave. He knew there was an appetite for a vote but misjudged the public mood.
Many Remain voters are still looking for someone to blame for the result. Perhaps consider the logic on reform applied pre Referendum. Cameron and the EU proposed reforms which did not meet the requirements of a majority of the voters. It was a big misjudgement.

Yes misjudgement followed by another, unfortunately 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

[pastafarian]

What gives you exclusive inside knowledge? It's pretty obvious why Cameron called it and it's not for the reasons you are lying about.

I don't think you're lying that the public had an appetite for a referendum. I think you're making it up that it was part of the reason we had one.

Therefore I don't think he thought the country wanted a referendum, therefore I don't think that factored into his decision to hold a referendum.

Its not a state secret, I don’t require inside knowledge.
You could simply look at that historic day in jan 2013 when Cameron gave that speech and announced the intention to have a referendum. He was fully aware about the public mood and anger over Europe but more importantly (concerning your claim) he references the public hunger to have a say on the matter

“there is a growing frustration that the EU is seen as something that is done to people rather than acting on their behalf.”

“People are increasingly frustrated ”

“And yes, of course, we are seeing this frustration with the EU very dramatically in Britain”

“Today, public disillusionment with the EU is at an all time high”

“People feel that the EU is heading in a direction that they never signed up to”

“They see Treaty after Treaty changing the balance between Member States and the EU. And note they were never given a say.”

“They’ve had referendums promised - but not delivered”.

“The result is that democratic consent for the EU in Britain is now wafer thin”

“the question mark is already there and ignoring it won’t make it go away”.


These are just a few snippets from the full speech.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9820230/David-Camerons-EU-speech-in-full.html

To claim that the public mood for a vote played NO part in the decision process to have one is daft beyond ridiculous, especially when he says he knows we want a say. Its even madder to claim he didnt know we wanted a referendum.........that claim is out there bonkers.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Its not a state secret, I don’t require inside knowledge.
You could simply look at that historic day in jan 2013 when Cameron gave that speech and announced the intention to have a referendum. He was fully aware about the public mood and anger over Europe but more importantly (concerning your claim) he references the public hunger to have a say on the matter

“there is a growing frustration that the EU is seen as something that is done to people rather than acting on their behalf.”

“People are increasingly frustrated ”

“And yes, of course, we are seeing this frustration with the EU very dramatically in Britain”

“Today, public disillusionment with the EU is at an all time high”

“People feel that the EU is heading in a direction that they never signed up to”

“They see Treaty after Treaty changing the balance between Member States and the EU. And note they were never given a say.”

“They’ve had referendums promised - but not delivered”.

“The result is that democratic consent for the EU in Britain is now wafer thin”

“the question mark is already there and ignoring it won’t make it go away”.


These are just a few snippets from the full speech.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9820230/David-Camerons-EU-speech-in-full.html

To claim that the public mood for a vote played NO part in the decision process to have one is daft beyond ridiculous, especially when he says he knows we want a say. Its even madder to claim he didnt know we wanted a referendum.........that claim is out there bonkers.

You must be right - of course public opinion played a role. People have been angry about the EU for a long time and there was no sign that they were going away.

But how many people and what influence did they have over Cameron’s decision to take his last, fatal gamble? It’s easy if you’re people like us, absorbed with something, be it the Albion or the EU, to over-estimate the number of people who are obsessing alongside you.

Straw polls can mislead, particularly with emotive subjects. Ask every person on a Brighton bus if they're backing the Albion and most will say yes. Ask a thousand shoppers across Britain if they think the EU is too big for its boots and most will say yes.

Public opinion was a factor but I believe Cameron felt he could contain it. Indeed, as Brexiters on here have repeatedly said, Cameron thought most people wanted to stay in the union. His problem was the problem that has bedevilled the Tory Party for half a century and reduced John Major to tears.

It was the usual suspects among his own back benchers, still a minority but greater in number since 2010, plus party activists as far to the right as Labour’s were to the left. As an election loomed UKIP was being a nuisance and siphoning some support from the edges of his party with a message of immigrant-bashing populism. The written media, in circulation terms at least, was stridently populist and therefore anti-EU.

An election was looming and Cameron wasn’t confident. He wasn’t as sure of marginalising the LibDems as he actually had reason to be and so he made the decision to head off UKIP and buy some time from the malcontents in his own party.

He predictably launched into crash-bang anti-EU bluster (some of which you quote), playing to the public gallery, winning over the newspapers and, he hoped, impressing the EU leaders he knew he would soon be negotiating with. The jewel is his crown though was the offer of a referendum. If anything would sink UKIP and his back bencher blazer brigade it would be that. What a stunt! He was almost certain he would win, in spite of the blood-curdling speeches about a popular revolution, but we was also certain he wouldn’t get the referendum offer past his own cabinet.

He therefore did it without telling them. It was straight out of the Tony Blair textbook. It’s how Blair took his country into war, and how Cameron took his country out of Europe. Two accidents in a dozen or so years.

 

[pastafarian]

You must be right - of course public opinion played a role. People have been angry about the EU for a long time and there was no sign that they were going away.

But how many people and what influence did they have over Cameron’s decision to take his last, fatal gamble? It’s easy if you’re people like us, absorbed with something, be it the Albion or the EU, to over-estimate the number of people who are obsessing alongside you.

Straw polls can mislead, particularly with emotive subjects. Ask every person on a Brighton bus if they're backing the Albion and most will say yes. Ask a thousand shoppers across Britain if they think the EU is too big for its boots and most will say yes.

Public opinion was a factor but I believe Cameron felt he could contain it. Indeed, as Brexiters on here have repeatedly said, Cameron thought most people wanted to stay in the union. His problem was the problem that has bedevilled the Tory Party for half a century and reduced John Major to tears.

It was the usual suspects among his own back benchers, still a minority but greater in number since 2010, plus party activists as far to the right as Labour’s were to the left. As an election loomed UKIP was being a nuisance and siphoning some support from the edges of his party with a message of immigrant-bashing populism. The written media, in circulation terms at least, was stridently populist and therefore anti-EU.

An election was looming and Cameron wasn’t confident. He wasn’t as sure of marginalising the LibDems as he actually had reason to be and so he made the decision to head off UKIP and buy some time from the malcontents in his own party.

He predictably launched into crash-bang anti-EU bluster (some of which you quote), playing to the public gallery, winning over the newspapers and, he hoped, impressing the EU leaders he knew he would soon be negotiating with. The jewel is his crown though was the offer of a referendum. If anything would sink UKIP and his back bencher blazer brigade it would be that. What a stunt! He was almost certain he would win, in spite of the blood-curdling speeches about a popular revolution, but we was also certain he wouldn’t get the referendum offer past his own cabinet.

He therefore did it without telling them. It was straight out of the Tony Blair textbook. It’s how Blair took his country into war, and how Cameron took his country out of Europe. Two accidents in a dozen or so years.

So we are in agreement then.
Public opinion did play a part in the decision to have a referendum and Cameron played the worst political ball game of his career.

who would have thought it