[Politics] Brexit

[synavm]

Probably true but I doubt they would even need whipping. A majority of MP's are sensible enough to know voting down (or insisting on preconditions to) the triggering of article 50 would be a step too far and cause numerous damaging repercussions.

Does democracy doesn't always throw up the right decision and our interests really mean the Remain side trying to dictate the terms of Brexit?

More worrying is the number of people who haven't really accepted the result and think it perfectly acceptable to either call for another go or insist we set out our full negotiating position now under the guise of the scrutiny reason whereas the truth is they want to block or dilute Brexit.

Unfortunately for them, we aren't as stupid as they seem to think (or keep telling us) we are. For ignoring the voice of the majority/dictatorial tendencies see 650 Lib Dem MP's.

I don't think the Remain side should or will dictate the terms of Brexit. The majority of Parliament will either be whipped or at least understand the need to respond to the result of the referendum. What should and will happen is a full Parliamentary debate taking into account the concerns of both pro-leave and pro-remain members. Amends can then be made to the bill.

On revealing our hand (which to be honest, I'm not completely sure we have a particularly strong hand anyway), the Government should go to the EU, begin negotiations and present it to Parliament to be scrutinised (by both sides). Anything else is totally unconstitutional and really gives carte blanche for and creates a precedent where the Government can operate as a dictatorship- which is ironic given the reason we're in this position is partly down to a perception that the EU is less democratic than our system and overrules our democracy. On a second referendum, it's not something I'm necessarily for (need to see what is negotiated), but I don't think Tim Farron's proposal is totally unreasonable either given once terms are clear, we can form our decision based on facts rather than rhetoric (which both sides are guilty of). Of course it'll be spun as 'keep holding referendums til the elite get what they want', but that's really not the case- people should be making an informed decision on something as big as Brexit. In July, frankly, nobody - particularly the leave side- really knew what they were voting for, we already have a better idea.

On your final point, nobody is saying majority should be ignored - at all. The reason I raised the 650 MPs analogy is that many vocal leave supporters are saying the Remain side should just shut up and accept the majority decision. Parliamentary democracy doesn't work that way, because there are always dissenting voices that need to be heard.

 

[synavm]

as you say, they will be whipped and even if not, i dont see a consensus emerging that would be compatible with the core objective of leaving the EU. remainers like to keep asking for detail on what Brexit means, i dont think they have presented their own alternative yet, instead relying on an assumption it will all be called off.

Not sure that's the case. There's plenty of models proposed- in or out of the single market, in or out of the EEA. As I say, it needs to be scrutinised. We don't completely know what is being proposed and we don't know what the consequences of the proposal being made. A leak that's come out suggests that Britain will go for a Canadian model, out of all trade agreements- what are the pros and cons of that? How will this affect living standards? Are the alternatives listed realistically achievable and will they better protect people? Are the electorate still happy to go ahead with Brexit if living standards are compromised? If not how do you deal with that, whilst respecting the outcome of the referendum? There is a lot to think about that needs to be put to the country, that's why I think its very dangerous to go against constitutional law and let the Government seal the deal behind the scenes.

 

[beorhthelm]

Not sure that's the case. There's plenty of models proposed-...

and there's the problem, no consensus but a wide range of acceptable options to this group or the other, most of which would not be acceptable to main others. its no use complaining the government doesn't have a plan when neither does the remainers, except to call the whole thing off.

 

[synavm]

and there's the problem, no consensus but a wide range of acceptable options to this group or the other, most of which would not be acceptable to main others. its no use complaining the government doesn't have a plan when neither does the remainers, except to call the whole thing off.

That's not what I'm saying. The Government should make the first move and it should be scrutinised and if there are better alternatives, they should be proposed.

 

[GT49er]

...and had Remain won the vote, the vast majority of Leave voters would have shrugged their shoulders, accepted the result, got on with their lives and waited patiently for the day when the EU inevitably crashes and burns.

Many of us have been waiting for that since 1975.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Turkey is being allowed into a customs union and allowed free movement. that is already happening. full membership is probably not possible, at least for a while, for now they have membership-lite.

Sorry if this has already been covered but I think you are confusing Visa-free travel with Freedom of Movement. Visa-free travel is very common (UK citizens have it with almost all of South America for example) whilst Freedom of Movement across international borders is vastly rarer. Turkey has been offered Visa-free travel in most of the EU, not what we all think of as FoM.

 

[studio150]

Many of us have been waiting for that since 1975.

So for 2 years 5 months you were happy with the UK being in

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Spot on. I certainly would not have bleated and cried for 5 months afterwards.

This continuous and cliched reference to bleating and crying and moaning and whinging is completely pathetic. There is a debate going on, involving arguments, counter strategies, protests, marches and manoeuvring on all sides. The Remain side fights on for the best outcome it can, just as the Albion side fought on when the Falmer odds were stacked against it. Albion supporters weren't crying then and Remain supporters aren't crying now.

Given that Farage was planning to campaign for a second referendum before the first one took place I assume you think that he is the original wingeing cry-baby. I don't think that as it happens. Whatever else he is he's a resolute campaigner. So are we. Get over it.

 

[yxee]

This continuous and cliched reference to bleating and crying and moaning and whinging is completely pathetic. There is a debate going on, involving arguments, counter strategies, protests, marches and manoeuvring on all sides. The Remain side fights on for the best outcome it can, just as the Albion side fought on when the Falmer odds were stacked against it. Albion supporters weren't crying then and Remain supporters aren't crying now.

Given that Farage was planning to campaign for a second referendum before the first one took place I assume you think that he is the original wingeing cry-baby. I don't think that as it happens. Whatever else he is he's a resolute campaigner. So are we. Get over it.

1. Farage does not speak for all leavers. Sorry
2. Whilst there is some legitimate debate, most of what I have seen is exactly what you would call bleating. Protesting. Calling for a second referendum (John major). Standing for electrons with a manifesto to ignore the result (lib Dems). Selectively identifying and sharing negative economic news to validate their own opinion/invalidate others.

That's not debate, that's moaning. By all means it's their right to do so, but in my eyes the label is accurate.

 

[Soulman]

1. Farage does not speak for all leavers. Sorry
2. Whilst there is some legitimate debate, most of what I have seen is exactly what you would call bleating. Protesting. Calling for a second referendum (John major). Standing for electrons with a manifesto to ignore the result (lib Dems). Selectively identifying and sharing negative economic news to validate their own opinion/invalidate others.

That's not debate, that's moaning. By all means it's their right to do so, but in my eyes the label is accurate.

Exactly, as Imp said they need to "Get over it".

 

[studio150]

identifying and sharing negative economic news

Oh forgot that we must all be happy and we must ignore any negative figures because we've got our country back. I understand that negative figures are also banned in North Korea.

 

[Baldseagull]

ok then, what is the position of the majority of MPs?

The majority of MP'S would want to retain full membership, but as a recent referendum pointed away from that, most want to retain full access to the single market. Only a nutter would not want that, what is arguable is the price we should be prepared to pay.

 

[GT49er]

So for 2 years 5 months you were happy with the UK being in

Rather stupid thing to say, considering the last referendum was in 1975. Perhaps if I'd amplified my answer and said that as well as waiting for the EU to crash and burn, we hadn't moaned about an adverse referendum result since 1975, and what leavers did was "shrugged their shoulders, accepted the result, got on with their lives", to quote from the post I was answering. An object lesson in democracy for today's remoaners, eh?

 

[Baldseagull]

and there's the problem, no consensus but a wide range of acceptable options to this group or the other, most of which would not be acceptable to main others. its no use complaining the government doesn't have a plan when neither does the remainers, except to call the whole thing off.

Exactly the same on the leave side, your lot won and can't agree on how far to go.

 

[GT49er]

I understand that negative figures are also banned in North Korea.

Oh well, at least you understand that.

 

[Baldseagull]

Rather stupid thing to say, considering the last referendum was in 1975. Perhaps if I'd amplified my answer and said that as well as waiting for the EU to crash and burn, we hadn't moaned about an adverse referendum result since 1975, and what leavers did was "shrugged their shoulders, accepted the result, got on with their lives", to quote from the post I was answering. An object lesson in democracy for today's remoaners, eh?

If only Farage had shrugged his shoulders and got on with his life. An object lesson in persistent one policy party, threatening to win seats from a major party to force a referendum, that no major party wanted to have.

 

[GT49er]

If only Farage had shrugged his shoulders and got on with his life. An object lesson in persistent one policy party, threatening to win seats from a major party to force a referendum, that no major party wanted to have.

A remarkable effort by Farage, you'll one day have to agree - a political triumph in the face of opposition from the entire establishment, and triumph it undoubtedly was, as he achieved his aim. We have lived through, and witnessed, a bit of history.

 

[Baldseagull]

1. Farage does not speak for all leavers. Sorry
2. Whilst there is some legitimate debate, most of what I have seen is exactly what you would call bleating. Protesting. Calling for a second referendum (John major). Standing for electrons with a manifesto to ignore the result (lib Dems). Selectively identifying and sharing negative economic news to validate their own opinion/invalidate others.

That's not debate, that's moaning. By all means it's their right to do so, but in my eyes the label is accurate.

Wish you guys could stop moaning about others not being delighted with the way things are going currently. Talk of a second referendum now is not about a rerun of the leave or remain question. It would be around accept and leave or refuse and remain. This time, it would be clear what the leave option would give you. Sounds very democratic to me, and the likes of me could not argue that the likes of you voted on lies and false promises.

 

[Prince Monolulu]

....and the likes of me could not argue that the likes of you voted on lies and false promises.

Can we go back on all the General Elections won in similar fashion?

 

[studio150]

Rather stupid thing to say, considering the last referendum was in 1975. Perhaps if I'd amplified my answer and said that as well as waiting for the EU to crash and burn, we hadn't moaned about an adverse referendum result since 1975, and what leavers did was "shrugged their shoulders, accepted the result, got on with their lives", to quote from the post I was answering. An object lesson in democracy for today's remoaners, eh?

But of course the UK joined the Common Market prior to the referendum