Ashley Barnes - what would you have done?

[Acker79]

This is painting a very negative outlook on the senior management of the club (TB, PB, DB, OG). You need to have a little more faith that a suitable replacement will be found.

How on earth do you come to that conclusion?! Show me where in that post I have made any judgement of the board/senior management, let alone a "very negative" one. Show me where I have made even a sly dig at the board. This thread is asking what posters would do. I answered without any consideration to what the board did or why they did it.

 

[beorhthelm]

When a player won't sign a new contract what are the club supposed to do? Barnes and his agent had their ideas as to what he was worth, the club had theirs.

i dont expect his wage demands have increased since the summer, so they knew the score. if it was too much should have sold and, most importantly, got a suitable replacment in then.

 

[B.W.]

If we had sold Murray in January, we would have missed out on I think half of his goals. This suggests you think we should have held onto Barnes (the board decided not to). In a crude hypothetical, if you take his goals away we lose eight or ten points (depending on if he left before January 3rd or by the end of January). That was the difference between winning the division and finishing in the play offs. If we sell Barnes we miss out on his goals and assists, clearing headers, defence-alleviating free kicks won, and general all round hard work. Further reinforcing your view that the board were wrong to let Barnes go.

For me, the issue isn't simply that if we wait til the summer we miss out on his money.

Barnes is on course for ten goals this season and seven or eight assists. That is a significant contribution to any team, but especially so to one who doesn't have a 25 goal striker this season (thanks to injury/suspension). And again.

How much money does reaching the play off bring in? How much money does being successful in the play offs bring in? A decent cup run?

Losing the contribution that Barnes brings to the team could be more costly to us than losing the 750k-1m+wages for the rest of the season. And so it goes on.

Unless we replace him with equal or better. No faith that the board will replace.

Without the knowledge of who we have lined up, who we might try to go for and have a good chance of getting, I don't think I could answer the question. But if you had faith in the board, you wouldn't be making those points.

With no one else lined up, I wouldn't sell. With someone appropriate lined up, I'd reluctantly sell. And this all assumes that the contract on offer was fair (both in wage level and length - I think some people forget who important contract length is to some player and how short some of the contracts we've been offering lately are, Ince was signed to a 2.5 year contract that is being presented as "long term"). So no faith that the board made a good enough offer to Barnes in terms of wages and term.

There are too many unknowns.

How on earth do you come to that conclusion?! Show me where in that post I have made any judgement of the board/senior management, let alone a "very negative" one. Show me where I have made even a sly dig at the board. This thread is asking what posters would do. I answered without any consideration to what the board did or why they did it.

See bold text above. What option did you vote for (if any)?

 

[keaton]

See bold text above. What option did you vote for (if any)?

That isn't "painting a very negative outlook on the senior management of the club" it's highlighting concerns.
It's alright to have concerns and questions regarding the club

 

[coagulantwolf]

Pretty conclusive agreement from the poll. Sad to see him go, but end of the day best option for all parties all factors considered.

 

[Acker79]

See bold text above. What option did you vote for (if any)?

Nonsense. Complete and utter BS. You are reading what you want into it. I don't know if it's easier for you to dismiss my comments about being pragmatic, taking a bigger picture view by rather than address my points, or if you've just already decided I don't like the board and so twist every comment I make to paint it as a dig at senior management.


For what it's worth I didn't vote because, as I said above, I don't have enough info. I fully expect the board did take all those things into consideration. Unlike you who seem to have just looked at the 750k now v nothing at the end of the season to make your decision. I have enough respect for the board to assume they do know whether they have a target to replace him that they are confident of landing.


But let's go through them:

If we had sold Murray in January, we would have missed out on I think half of his goals. This suggests you think we should have held onto Barnes (the board decided not to). In a crude hypothetical, if you take his goals away we lose eight or ten points (depending on if he left before January 3rd or by the end of January). That was the difference between winning the division and finishing in the play offs. If we sell Barnes we miss out on his goals and assists, clearing headers, defence-alleviating free kicks won, and general all round hard work. Further reinforcing your view that the board were wrong to let Barnes go.​

No. What this suggests is that if you sell a player you don't just gain any money you get for them, you also lose what they contribute on the pitch, and shows the difference that can have at the end of the season. This illustrates that it isn't a simple decision over 750k now v nothing in the summer. This is something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

For me, the issue isn't simply that if we wait til the summer we miss out on his money.

Barnes is on course for ten goals this season and seven or eight assists. That is a significant contribution to any team, but especially so to one who doesn't have a 25 goal striker this season (thanks to injury/suspension). And again.​

This is about what Barnes would have, in theory, contributed, and how it is not something to lightly dismiss. This is again something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

How much money does reaching the play off bring in? How much money does being successful in the play offs bring in? A decent cup run?

Losing the contribution that Barnes brings to the team could be more costly to us than losing the 750k-1m+wages for the rest of the season. And so it goes on.​

Here I am summarising the issue that makes it a more difficult decision than the 750k now v nothing in the summer argument that so many people seem to reduce it to. Once again, this is something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

Unless we replace him with equal or better. No faith that the board will replace.​

No. This is me expecting the response to my above point to be along the lines of "yeah, but we could get someone else in", so addressing that point to make my response to the poll question a full response. It is also the first step in my overall point that I don't have enough info to answer whether or not I would sell, run down the contract, or pay up. You guessed, it, this is something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

Without the knowledge of who we have lined up, who we might try to go for and have a good chance of getting, I don't think I could answer the question. But if you had faith in the board, you wouldn't be making those points.​

Yes, I would. Because the question is not "do you think the board have done the right thing?" the question is "what would you have done". What I would have done would depend on these very points. It is very important to answering the question at hand, regardless of what faith I have in the board.

With no one else lined up, I wouldn't sell. With someone appropriate lined up, I'd reluctantly sell. And this all assumes that the contract on offer was fair (both in wage level and length - I think some people forget who important contract length is to some player and how short some of the contracts we've been offering lately are, Ince was signed to a 2.5 year contract that is being presented as "long term"). So no faith that the board made a good enough offer to Barnes in terms of wages and term.​

Actually, it's an acknowledgement of the complexity of contract deals, different offers. People keep talking about the contract as if we would have to increase the weekly fee to the point of bankruptcy, when perhaps it was more about the length of the deal, which if we can afford it now one would assume it wouldn't bankrupt us if it was lengthened. That a "fair" deal is subjective.

It is also an acknowledgement that contract deals are negotiations. You go in low (or with the smallest increase you can), the player comes in high (or with the largest increase) and then you negotiate, go back and forth until either meets a cut off point or you make a deal you both accept. The offer on the table could be the clubs first offer, that they might be willing to negotiate at the end of the season, but because they don't like doing deals during the season they have put negotiations on hold (I know Ince signed now, but we have plenty of options in midfield at the moment, so aren't beholden to one player, whereas we have one fit permanent striker other than Barnes, his negotiation position would be stronger now than in the summer, so we would want to stick to that end of season policy), or it could be their final offer because it's all they are willing or able to pay him. This is important in deciding if the third option in this poll about what I would do is a realistic option, and again is something I don't know. It is, however, something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

 

[Bwian]

i dont expect his wage demands have increased since the summer, so they knew the score. if it was too much should have sold and, most importantly, got a suitable replacment in then.

Maybe the club was hopeful that they could persuade him to stay after working with OG and his team for a few months.
They couldn't so next best thing is sell him now-not ideal but I'm sure there is a plan there somewhere.

 

[B.W.]

Dear Acker79

I don't want to quote your whole epic response to my 'See bold text' one, because it is just too long. However, I take offense to this text in your post:

"Unlike you who seem to have just looked at the 750k now v nothing at the end of the season to make your decision." That is just so wrong. I obviously consider Barnes to be less of an asset to the team than you, and that is just my opinion but, nevertheless, I certainly did consider his contribution. And the likely contribution of his probable replacement.

I also think we know enough to make a reasonable judgement on whether the club did the right thing. It seems that about 90% of posters agree with me that the club made the right decision. Shame you can't bring yourself to do likewise.

 

[fleet]

If there was no chance he would sign then he had to go now. But hard to believe we can't match what Burnley can offer.

 

[blue2]

The club had no choice you offer contracts to players which they can choose to or not accept the club needs to recoup what it can and not let the player and agent string them along until the contract is up.

Ash thinks his future is elsewhere good luck to him we want players who are happy to play for the club within the wage structure that will not break the bank and keeps us within FFP.

CMS must be close to fitness and I for one will be hoping a partnership with Leo is on the cards, we had one brief glimpse of what that could be just before his injury and from what I can remember it looked promising

 

[Biscuit]

It seems that about 90% of posters agree with me that the club made the right decision. Shame you can't bring yourself to do likewise.

I wouldn't trust that poll! The options are ''Do a Murray'', ''Do a Pompey'' or ''The club did the right thing.'' No weighted questions there!!

I see it like this: The club have sold a hardworking, match-fit, goalscoring squad player to a direct Play Off rival, at a crucial point in the season. It's understandable that [MENTION=12595]Acker79[/MENTION] and many others don't agree with that decision.

However for better or worse, it's been done now. May as well look to the future and pray to God he doesn't do what I think he'll do, and beat us in the Play Off final.

 

[sydney]

BURNLEY...!! ffs ...they won't go up.

 

[Acker79]

Dear Acker79

I don't want to quote your whole epic response to my 'See bold text' one, because it is just too long. However, I take offense to this text in your post:

"Unlike you who seem to have just looked at the 750k now v nothing at the end of the season to make your decision." That is just so wrong. I obviously consider Barnes to be less of an asset to the team than you, and that is just my opinion but, nevertheless, I certainly did consider his contribution. And the likely contribution of his probable replacement.

I also think we know enough to make a reasonable judgement on whether the club did the right thing. It seems that about 90% of posters agree with me that the club made the right decision. Shame you can't bring yourself to do likewise.

It's a poll on a fan website just after we've lost a player, it doesn't mean anything much beyond the current and probably fleeting opinion of a group of people who by their nature are incredibly fickle (that is, football fans) without any real substantive knowledge of the overall picture. There are several reasons for why the percentage is so high.

1) It's barnes. There are people who openly admit to not liking him, and there are people who try to claim neutrality while never really being fair to him, and would probably be willing to let him got for nothing now than keep him.
2) It's almost a cliche of football fans to rate players until they choose to go elsewhere - just look at the palace thread back in the last window where they were being mocked for raving about targets, until the targets turned them down, at which point they were not good enough. That happens when teams lose players too.
3) Some people just look at the money and haven't considered the points I raised.
4) Look at the feeling towards Murray. While people would have taken him back because they liked him, not many people saw him as up to the championship at the end of 2011/12 when he had fewer goals than CMS and Barnes. The following season, people's opinion would have changed dramatically after his 30 goal season. People's opinion on the rightness of this decision will depend on our performance without Barnes, and Barnes' performance with Burnley
5) You have to be a fool to think the poll result would be the same if come May we haven't replaced him, and we miss out on the play offs by a small margin while Barnes fires in goals for Burnley that clinches them promotion?
6) People, like me, who feel we don't know enough, won't have responded.


I'm not like the posters who write off Conway after a handful of appearances, I don't dismiss players because they have a poor run of form. I like to wait and see how things pan out before deciding on whether the board were right or wrong.

Come the end of the transfer window/season I might think the club were right. I might think they were right in theory but unfortunately the replacement they brought in didn't live up to expectations, or I might, and many of your 90% may, decide actually, with all the info (about what contribution we miss, what we get from any replacement, what Barnes produces as Burnley etc), known that it was the wrong decision.

I think it's a shame you seem to think there's something wrong with not rushing to a decision, to waiting and seeing how things pan out before passing judgement.

But again, that is irrelevant to this thread, which isn't about whether the board are right or wrong, but about what each responder would do.


This Barnes debate has been going for a few days, and all you have said in justification for selling him is about the money now rather than nothing in the summer. You have not, in the posts I've seen, considered what he brought to the team. (You have complimented him, suggesting an appreciation for what he brought to the team, but that was always separate to comments about how much money you can get for him). If your reason for selling someone who by your own words has been "playing brilliantly" is that we won't get anything for him in summer, it is going to seem like you're only interested in money.

 

[Acker79]

I wouldn't trust that poll! The options are ''Do a Murray'', ''Do a Pompey'' or ''The club did the right thing.'' No weighted questions there!!

I see it like this: The club have sold a hardworking, match-fit, goalscoring squad player to a direct Play Off rival, at a crucial point in the season. It's understandable that [MENTION=12595]Acker79[/MENTION] and many others don't agree with that decision.

However for better or worse, it's been done now. May as well look to the future and pray to God he doesn't do what I think he'll do, and beat us in the Play Off final.

I don't know if I agree or disagree with it yet. I'm waiting to see how things pan out.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Nonsense. Complete and utter BS. You are reading what you want into it. I don't know if it's easier for you to dismiss my comments about being pragmatic, taking a bigger picture view by rather than address my points, or if you've just already decided I don't like the board and so twist every comment I make to paint it as a dig at senior management.

But let's go through them:

.......

It is, however, something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

I can feel the simmering anger right through this post!

It's a poll on a fan website just after we've lost a player, it doesn't mean anything much beyond the current and probably fleeting opinion of a group of people who by their nature are incredibly fickle (that is, football fans) without any real substantive knowledge of the overall picture. There are several reasons for why the percentage is so high.

1) It's barnes. There are people who openly admit to not liking him, and there are people who try to claim neutrality while never really being fair to him, and would probably be willing to let him got for nothing now than keep him.
2) It's almost a cliche of football fans to rate players until they choose to go elsewhere - just look at the palace thread back in the last window where they were being mocked for raving about targets, until the targets turned them down, at which point they were not good enough. That happens when teams lose players too.
3) Some people just look at the money and haven't considered the points I raised.
4) Look at the feeling towards Murray. While people would have taken him back because they liked him, not many people saw him as up to the championship at the end of 2011/12 when he had fewer goals than CMS and Barnes. The following season, people's opinion would have changed dramatically after his 30 goal season. People's opinion on the rightness of this decision will depend on our performance without Barnes, and Barnes' performance with Burnley
5) You have to be a fool to think the poll result would be the same if come May we haven't replaced him, and we miss out on the play offs by a small margin while Barnes fires in goals for Burnley that clinches them promotion?
6) People, like me, who feel we don't know enough, won't have responded.


I'm not like the posters who write off Conway after a handful of appearances, I don't dismiss players because they have a poor run of form. I like to wait and see how things pan out before deciding on whether the board were right or wrong.

Come the end of the transfer window/season I might think the club were right. I might think they were right in theory but unfortunately the replacement they brought in didn't live up to expectations, or I might, and many of your 90% may, decide actually, with all the info (about what contribution we miss, what we get from any replacement, what Barnes produces as Burnley etc), known that it was the wrong decision.

I think it's a shame you seem to think there's something wrong with not rushing to a decision, to waiting and seeing how things pan out before passing judgement.

But again, that is irrelevant to this thread, which isn't about whether the board are right or wrong, but about what each responder would do.


This Barnes debate has been going for a few days, and all you have said in justification for selling him is about the money now rather than nothing in the summer. You have not, in the posts I've seen, considered what he brought to the team. (You have complimented him, suggesting an appreciation for what he brought to the team, but that was always separate to comments about how much money you can get for him). If your reason for selling someone who by your own words has been "playing brilliantly" is that we won't get anything for him in summer, it is going to seem like you're only interested in money.

I love reading your posts. They put in words what I can only think, or frame an argument in a way I hadn't heard before. Do you have any time to do anything else?!

 

[Acker79]

I can feel the simmering anger right through this post!

I love reading your posts. They put in words what I can only think, or frame an argument in a way I hadn't heard before. Do you have any time to do anything else?!

Heh. Plenty of time, though I usually spend that with my excel files...

 

[Icy Gull]

Unless we have a comparable striker or better lined up there is no way I'd have let Barnes walk away, easy to say as it's not my money but I'd have taken the 750k plus wages to June hit.

I have total faith in Oscar and TB though so I am expecting a wonderful out of the blue quality striker to arrive before the window closes.

 

[Perkino]

The club obviously have a pay structure they want to stay within and if he wasn't going to stay then I guess selling makes sense. But truthfully gutted. Not been this annoyed at loosing a player since Benno left

 

[B.W.]

I wouldn't trust that poll! The options are ''Do a Murray'', ''Do a Pompey'' or ''The club did the right thing.'' No weighted questions there!!

I see it like this: The club have sold a hardworking, match-fit, goalscoring squad player to a direct Play Off rival, at a crucial point in the season. It's understandable that [MENTION=12595]Acker79[/MENTION] and many others don't agree with that decision.

However for better or worse, it's been done now. May as well look to the future and pray to God he doesn't do what I think he'll do, and beat us in the Play Off final.

I agree that there is an inherent bias in the way the poll options are written but, really, do you think that this had much impact on the result? Enough to turn around a 90/10% split!? I think not.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

The club obviously have a pay structure they want to stay within and if he wasn't going to stay then I guess selling makes sense. But truthfully gutted. Not been this annoyed at loosing a player since Benno left

He would have stayed within the structure. He'd have signed a reasonable contract offer. They just didn't value him that highly. Time may tell