[News] 15 yr school girl stabbed to death Croydon

[Horses Arse]

we cant keep dragging up notes from 2010 or austerity for every problem. in this case the budget was cut because so many other areas were ring fenced from real austerity. another factor was crime had been declining 15 years so may be not so many coppers needed.

Glasgow and elsewhere has shown the success of targeted stop and search in reducing knife and general crime. other forces are scared to use it due to local demographics and fears due to previous use. sadly some areas have other endemic problems and seems no one will tell boys and young men that its not OK to behave the way they do. and most the time it stays in those areas, most people dont live there and dont really care all that much after the news story blows over.

I think we can. It is extremely relevant and cannot be allowed to happen again.

This government has a great deal of blood on its hands.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

FACT! That worked.

Although for many reasons, police numbers should never have been cut from 2010, it was a gaff. Rapists, burglars, thugs, rural thieves all gain from stretched police forces.

Mixed messages whenever knife carrying on London is mentioned. The Met are the baddies, how dare they stop n search young folk in a knife hotspot. Then the same complainants say we need more Met officers.

It doesn’t help when 1000 Met officers are suspended whilst being investigated for sexual offences and/or domestic violence.

 

[Horses Arse]

Agreed

However how much of the problems they face today is (at least in part) due to a housing market that was allowed to go unchecked for years under a Labour Government ?
10% + increases in value each year was always bound to catch up with society at some point as it means more and more income lost to paying for their accomodation (especially for non home owners (ie renters who don't have an asset they could borrow against) resulting in less disposable income and therefore more vulnerable to economic shocks (like the Russian invasion) and the effects it has on global prices from anything like Gas and oil to food stuffs

Add in ever increasing demands for more and more money to spend on services by other Government and public bodies (often funded by even accuring even more debt, that has to be serviced, reducing the effective taxation income and reduing what can be spent)

To me there is also an issue with having smaller and smaller authorities / departments covering more and more things, effectively making it harder to get money from a more affluant area (which may have a tax surplus) to a poorer area which is then more likely to need to cut spending on those who need it most

Blaming the Labour Party for a global financial crash? That you Boris?

Meanwhile, the extreme incompetence of the last 13 years is presented as world leading.


No wonder this country is in such a state.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't think the police are 'allowing' it to continue.

If anyone is allowing the it to continue, it is the justice system that comes into play after the police have made an arrest.

Would be interested to know what you think happens after say a 15 year old gets caught carrying a machete in a public place?

That’s why I mentioned the Criminal Justice System as a whole as well as the police.

 

[Weststander]

I think we can. It is extremely relevant and cannot be allowed to happen again.

This government has a great deal of blood on its hands.

Has Starmer or Sadiq blamed the Tory government for the knife crrime murders, I've not heard that.

Some interesting calls on the radio today from black (they revealed that) folk living in London. One described the post code knife murder epidemic about 10 / 15 years ago, young black lads were knifed if not from the area. Replaced now by a pathetic "respect" thing .... you looked at me the wrong way.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Blaming the Labour Party for a global financial crash? That you Boris?

Meanwhile, the extreme incompetence of the last 13 years is presented as world leading.


No wonder this country is in such a state.

Not for the global crash itself, however they were not in a position where the country was prepared, should one happen, and therefore their actions did play a part in creating the need for austerity measures

Yet, by your point, it shouldn't be blamed on the Tories for austerity either because a) they didn't create the global crash that caused it, and b) they didn't control spending prior, and choose to empty the coffers meaning that the country was in a poor state financially to start with - however it hasn't stopped those who support Labour from using it (cuts they may have wanted to avoid making but had to be made as a result of trying to cope with the financial reality they faced yet it's used as points scoring, even on this thread with reference to cuts to police numbers)

You can't claim something is the responsibilty of one party or another only when it suits your point of view, conveniently ignoring everything else that doesn't fit in with your narrative - especially when faced with very complex, interconnected issues.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Not for the global crash itself, however they were not in a position where the country was prepared, should one happen, and therefore their actions did play a part in creating the need for austerity measures

Yet, by your point, it shouldn't be blamed on the Tories for austerity either because a) they didn't create the global crash that caused it, and b) they didn't control spending prior, and choose to empty the coffers meaning that the country was in a poor state financially to start with - however it hasn't stopped those who support Labour from using it (cuts they may have wanted to avoid making but had to be made as a result of trying to cope with the financial reality they faced yet it's used as points scoring, even on this thread with reference to cuts to police numbers)

You can't claim something is the responsibilty of one party or another only when it suits your point of view, conveniently ignoring everything else that doesn't fit in with your narrative - especially when faced with very complex, interconnected issues.

a) Rishi Sunak was a hedge fund manager during the global crash.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Has Starmer or Sadiq blamed the Tory government for the knife crrime murders, I've not heard that.

Some interesting calls on the radio today from black (they revealed that) folk living in London. One described the post code knife murder epidemic about 10 / 15 years ago, young black lads were knifed if not from the area. Replaced now by a pathetic "respect" thing .... you looked at me the wrong way.

Here is the thing. Of course there is a disproportionate percentage of black boys in the knife crime game in London. But this still doesn't mean this justifies targeting all young black men in order to catch the ones with knives.

It might be a bit less problematic if the police had a history of treating all citizens with respect. My own two brushes with the law in London had be called a c*** and inches from being assaulted. Onstead I was merely abused by a white policeman with a face suffused with hate,. That was 45 years ago when I was a punk rocker.

My expectation if I were a young black man in London would be that I will be repeatedly stopped, maltreated and abused by the met police, and if I had a nice car this would happen every other week. That cannot be right.

 

[Albion 4ever]

The biggest issue for me is that young offenders are not punished appropriately for serious offences.
These youths are often not in education or in Pupil Referral Units which are not fit for purpose.

Speaking from experience I have known youths commit a pre medicated vicious assault resulting in life changing injuries to a senior member of staff at a PRU. He got a caution. Guess what, he did it to another student just months later. He got another caution. It’s then just another step to using a knife.

It’s time these youths had access to a secure unit if they are not fit for any form of education.

But it will be against their human rights so it will never happen.

Never mind the risk to law abiding citizens.

 

[Hendrax]

is it right that she allegedly rejected some flowers from him, so he killed her. What the actual f***. These kids need to be brought up properly. Rejection is a tough pill to swallow, but you do.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The biggest issue for me is that young offenders are not punished appropriately for serious offences.
These youths are often not in education or in Pupil Referral Units which are not fit for purpose.

Speaking from experience I have known youths commit a pre medicated vicious assault resulting in life changing injuries to a senior member of staff at a PRU. He got a caution. Guess what, he did it to another student just months later. He got another caution. It’s then just another step to using a knife.

It’s time these youths had access to a secure unit if they are not fit for any form of education.

But it will be against their human rights so it will never happen.

Never mind the risk to law abiding citizens.

Knife crime – new minimum custodial sentences for children aged 16 and 17

yjlc.uk

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not for the global crash itself, however they were not in a position where the country was prepared, should one happen, and therefore their actions did play a part in creating the need for austerity measures

Yet, by your point, it shouldn't be blamed on the Tories for austerity either because a) they didn't create the global crash that caused it, and b) they didn't control spending prior, and choose to empty the coffers meaning that the country was in a poor state financially to start with - however it hasn't stopped those who support Labour from using it (cuts they may have wanted to avoid making but had to be made as a result of trying to cope with the financial reality they faced yet it's used as points scoring, even on this thread with reference to cuts to police numbers)

You can't claim something is the responsibilty of one party or another only when it suits your point of view, conveniently ignoring everything else that doesn't fit in with your narrative - especially when faced with very complex, interconnected issues.

If it wasn't for, yes, Gordon Brown, the crash would have been far more devastating.

I wouldn't blame the tories for the effects of the crash had the tories been in charge when it fell.

But your argument that you can't blame the Tories for austerity is nonsense. That was a policy.

You can't claim something is the responsibilty of one party or another only when it suits your point of view, conveniently ignoring everything else that doesn't fit in with your narrative - especially when faced with very complex, interconnected issues.

 

[Weststander]

Here is the thing. Of course there is a disproportionate percentage of black boys in the knife crime game in London. But this still doesn't mean this justifies targeting all young black me in order to catch the ones with knives.

It might be a bit less problematic if the police had a history of treating all citizens with respect. My own two brushes with the law in London had be called a c*** and inches from being assaulted. Onstead I was merely abused by a white policeman with a face suffused with hate,. That was 45 years ago when I was a punk rocker.

My expectation if I were a young black man in London would be that I will be repeatedly stopped, maltreated and abused by the met police, and if I had a nice car this would happen every other week. That cannot be right.

Because young people, mainly black, are literally dying or maimed. My two basic solutions to save lives now are:
1. Far more use of metal detectors. I realise there are ceramic knives. I think some schools have them, I noticed that Pryzm in Brighton has them.
2. Sad to say, more stop n search where (1) isn't available. Targeting areas. With white and asian numbers upped.

Has anyone else here or anywhere go a solution for now that will save lives in 2023?

 

[Albion 4ever]

Knife crime – new minimum custodial sentences for children aged 16 and 17

yjlc.uk

A minimum 4 month custodial sentence for 16-17 years olds carrying a knife. *

* On the second occasion.

* And still at the judges discretion so not really compulsory.

 

[emphyrian]

Ah yes, stop and search. If only we had the numbers of police on the streets to stop and search.
PS see my previous post.

I agree with @Beanstalk, youth services have been obliterated in this country. Keep the kids off the streets and into youth clubs, boxing clubs, football etc and it will drastically reduce crime.
Signed
A fully qualified youth worker from 1976-1993

Im a fully qualified youth worker at present working in Woodingdean. Due to the amount of money offered to us we can open three times a week for 2 hours a time. Money needs putting into youth provisions so we can have the youth club open as much as is possible. Would like to be open 9 to 9 so all kids have a place they can go.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

That’s true but the police must know by stats & profiling whose most likely to be carrying these weapons . Why don’t they scale up stop and search significantly?

You've not seen the history of the Met and Stop & Search then ?

 

[Guy Fawkes]

If it wasn't for, yes, Gordon Brown, the crash would have been far more devastating.

I wouldn't blame the tories for the effects of the crash had the tories been in charge when it fell.

But your argument that you can't blame the Tories for austerity is nonsense. That was a policy.

You can't claim something is the responsibilty of one party or another only when it suits your point of view, conveniently ignoring everything else that doesn't fit in with your narrative - especially when faced with very complex, interconnected issues.

A policy based on the reality they faced when they cme to power, based upon the fincncial situation they faced as left by Labour.

If the treasury coffers were full, would they have implimented austerity measures? No, i very much doubt they would have, especially as there wouldn't be a need to.

Would the Lib dems, in coalition with the Tories, have gone back on their election pledges on VAT and tuition fees, if they felt the country could have afforded to keep things as they were? or once they were sharing power, and saw the state of the countries finances, they realised that the country wasn't in a position to be able to deliver their pledges and sacrified them for the greater good of the country?

They made high profile commitments not to raise VAT and not to increase tuition fees, rhetorically underlining the credibility of their pledges by asserting that on VAT the party had ‘done our homework’ and ‘identified where money can be generated and where money can be saved’. However, in the months following the election the party’s actions appeared in stark contrast to their previous rhetoric as in government they voted with the Conservatives to raise VAT from 17.5 to 20%, and to increase tuition fees to £9,000

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A policy based on the reality they faced when they cme to power, based upon the fincncial situation they faced as left by Labour.

If the treasury coffers were full, would they have implimented austerity measures? No, i very much doubt they would have, especially as there wouldn't be a need to.

Would the Lib dems, in coalition with the Tories, have gone back on their election pledges on VAT and tuition fees, if they felt the country could have afforded to keep things as they were? or once they were sharing power, and saw the state of the countries finances, they realised that the country wasn't in a position to be able to deliver their pledges and sacrified them for the greater good of the country?

A policy that was not embraced around the world by numerous other nations that recovered more quickly than ourselves. It was a policy designed to 'rebalance' UK society in favour of the haves. Were I a tory I would have backed it to the hilt - as a well off tory I'd be fine, while the scroungers would just have to work harder for less, which is what 'we' all want.

Like rationing, kept too long by Labour after the war to their costs, austerity might have cost the tories were it not for Brexit, that awful arse Corbyn, then Covid. Now it has almost been forgotten.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

a) Rishi Sunak was a hedge fund manager during the global crash.

Bit of an unnecessary jibe where you will get likes from people who want to politicize a stabbing. The fact is that Hedge fund managers manage money on behalf of corporations and wealthy individuals. It’s a job and one that most that mention it on here probably don’t understand. Do you know which markets he invested in ? If not then you don’t know what his job involved. All hedge fund managers don’t do the same thing. In any case I’m not sure what it has to do with what happened in Croydon. This thread began badly and has gone downhill from there.

 

[beorhthelm]

I think we can. It is extremely relevant and cannot be allowed to happen again.

This government has a great deal of blood on its hands.

its not relevant because knife crime wasn't invented in 2010. it is not a new problem, despite cuts the Met had >30k officers, its a matter of how they use them and policies followed. instead of the issue in hand we travel down the well trodden politcal back and forth, as if thats more important than the kids getting stabbed.