Official middle-aged man's Craft Beer thread

Pogue Mahone · Feb 15, 2014

beorhthelm said:
the origin of the term is exactly that, its comes from America to define breweries producing less than a few million barrels a year. it has become used to descibe what were called microbreweries over here until recently. but seemingly excluding all the smaller indie brewers as i say (in the american rules they would be classified as such). i'll concede there can be "craft" lagers, but the vast majority of what is called craft is ale in brewing style. its good that you've gained an interest in beer, though there are many varied and interesting ales on the shelves that havent seen fit to put "craft" anywhere on their labels or marketing.

I suppose I meant to say that the size of the brewery is not what interests me, overly - the taste of the beer is far more important. And I have found that I enjoy the taste of many of these new craft beers much more than most ale that I have sampled.

I fell in love with the stuff on a holiday to New York and Toronto where my eyes were well and truly opened.

I've always had an interest in beer - but the reasons for this interest have changed over the years...

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 15, 2014

beorhthelm said:
the origin of the term is exactly that, its comes from America to define breweries producing less than a few million barrels a year

There is a US definition which specifies output and therefore size. But, this is just one group's definition. I understand it's not widely used. To me and many others craft is a loose term which means beer which isn't made using industrial methods and mainly in a keg. If you can knock out x million barrels under these conditions then you're craft in my mind so size isn't a barometer. That said most craft brewers tend to be small and not using industrial methods will, I guess, limit your output.

What does puzzle me is why there is such a us-and-them attitude. Real ale drinkers seem to be offended by this new wave of brewing. Why is this? As I said for me it has been a gateway to cask beers which is surely a good thing? We can happily co-exist just like the hand and nitro pumps do in Craft Beer Co or The Southover.

Normal Rob · Feb 15, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
What does puzzle me is why there is such a us-and-them attitude. Real ale drinkers seem to be offended by this new wave of brewing. Why is this? As I said for me it has been a gateway to cask beers which is surely a good thing? We can happily co-exist just like the hand and nitro pumps do in Craft Beer Co or The Southover.

With slight trepidation of saying this, I really don't think the term 'craft' helps. Nearly all drinkers that I know are aligned with me in their thinking, that it is a somewhat vulgar and trendy Americanised term jumped upon by marketing types to make their product appeal to a younger, more image conscious and impressionable consumer.

Edit: and I don't know any who disapprove of the beers themselves, though many don't find them appealing to their tastes.

vegster · Feb 15, 2014

Normal Rob said:
With slight trepidation of saying this, I really don't think the term 'craft' helps. Nearly all drinkers that I know are aligned with me in their thinking, that it is a somewhat vulgar and trendy Americanised term jumped upon by marketing types to make their product appeal to a younger, more image conscious and impressionable consumer.

Plus its a good opportunity to ramp up the price by a fortune.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 15, 2014

Normal Rob said:
With slight trepidation of saying this, I really don't think the term 'craft' helps. Nearly all drinkers that I know are aligned with me in their thinking, that it is a somewhat vulgar and trendy Americanised term jumped upon by marketing types to make their product appeal to a younger, more image conscious and impressionable consumer.

Well, in my opinion appealing to a broader demographic was much needed but I don't think it was cynical and down to marketing types. It's an alternative to cask ale which seems to be what certain people like me have been wanting/waiting for.

PS I'm 45 and certainly not impressionable.

Normal Rob · Feb 15, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
PS I'm 45 and certainly not impressionable.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you are the marketing machine's prize scalp. Whatever, if you enjoy the beer then it does not matter.

vegster · Feb 15, 2014

If we all lived in Belgium we wouldn't need this thread.

Questions · Feb 15, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
What does puzzle me is why there is such a us-and-them attitude. Real ale drinkers seem to be offended by this new wave of brewing. Why is this? As I said for me it has been a gateway to cask beers which is surely a good thing? We can happily co-exist just like the hand and nitro pumps do in Craft Beer Co or The Southover.

Exactly, anyway enough of this categorisation boll ox. Tonight I am spending the evening with a Flying Dog Classic Pale a Founders Pale and then a Oakham Citra to round things off (maybe) as I cook the curry. Cheers chaps.

Questions · Feb 15, 2014

vegster said:
If we all lived in Belgium we wouldn't need this thread.

Not true Veg. Pales are not their forte are they. So ? Anyway I don't want to antagonise you if you are going to bring me some back next week. Btw the Maredous Triples are good as is their dubble. Might have my last Westleteren now you bring the subject up.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 15, 2014

Questions said:
Exactly, anyway enough of this categorisation boll ox. Tonight I am spending the evening with a Flying Dog Classic Pale a Founders Pale and then a Oakham Citra to round things off (maybe) as I cook the curry. Cheers chaps.

Good point. We are digressing too much. Let's get down to business; I've just poured a Magic Rock Cannonball IPA. Cheers fellas.

vegster · Feb 15, 2014

Questions said:
Not true Veg. Pales are not their forte are they. So ? Anyway I don't want to antagonise you if you are going to bring me some back next week. Btw the Maredous Triples are good as is their dubble. Might have my last Westleteren now you bring the subject up.

The triples are blonde so won't keep. Mind you, a bottle of beer does not need a " best before " date in your house as it won't even get close. Was looking to get the Donkers and fancy trying out a couple of lambics with a view to getting some home.

Ps, still holding 9 Westvletteren 8's
Pps, who needs pales when you walk in to a bar that stocks about 100 beers.

beorhthelm · Feb 15, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
...To me and many others craft is a loose term which means beer which isn't made using industrial methods and mainly in a keg. If you can knock out x million barrels under these conditions then you're craft in my mind so size isn't a barometer. That said most craft brewers tend to be small and not using industrial methods will, I guess, limit your output.

not sure how you think brewing is done, but unless you're talking nano-breweries making and serving on the premises, its all industrial methods. the difference between Brewdog and Bitburger is the number and size of the stainless steal vats they use. even home brew pretty soon starts to get technical (shiney toys :lolol:

).

agree there's too much us and them, which is partially why i dislike the craft beer term, its another faultline along which some will decide not to cross. there's no style or approach to beer making thats inherently bad, just sometimes bad product (mostly the continental cooking lagers and american rice-bulked lagers - i think theres common ground there at least?)

Questions · Feb 15, 2014

vegster said:
The triples are blonde so won't keep. Mind you, a bottle of beer does not need a " best before " date in your house as it won't even get close. Was looking to get the Donkers and fancy trying out a couple of lambics with a view to getting some home.

Ps, still holding 9 Westvletteren 8's
Pps, who needs pales when you walk in to a bar that stocks about 100 beers.

Yeah but a pale or a strong IPA has its place. I would never knock the Belgiums but there are gaps. Hence my choice tonight. Anyway decided on a Dark Star Imperial Stout to round things off and it's been resting for 3 years so we'll see mate. All this talk about what style or word to describe a beer is all nonsense, let's just recommend and enjoy and relish the fact that whether it is in a bottle, a keg or in cask, things have never been better.

Cesar Chavez · Feb 15, 2014

This will be my last post on terminology, but I can't let your description of the term 'craft' go uncorrected. It is simply not true to say that it is applied only to small breweries not making lager. Many of the craft brewers I'm familar with are proud of their lagers, we discuseed some particular impressive Kolch style lagers, brewed by self declared craft brewers on this very thread. Liker the other chap who is offended by the concept, please do some research before leaping in. Also craft beer can be keg, or cask - just not so much of that about.
Anyway, let's now stick to enjoying, decent beer, brewed by folk who respect different styles and taste and who don't want to squeeze the oppposition out of existence.

beorhthelm said:
i'd say your missing a point too. "craft" beer is an american term, de efining small breweries not making lager (because thats all americans know otherwise). we already have a prefect good term for this: ale. i do slightly dislike the spread of the term "craft" other here, as it implies everything else is without any craft. a bit like how "real" has been used when really they mean cask conditioned. my bottle of Arundel Gold, Harveys Old, or Hogs back TEA seem pretty real to me. the "new wave of indepedents" presumably excludes the Harveys and other established local brewers that have stayed the course. adding variety and taste is all too often throwing in lots of Cascade, Citra or Nelson Sauvin for a heavy citrus flavour. but if as you say the industry is happy with it and the big brewers are happy to use "craft", maybe it will die off itself and we can just back to enjoying our ales, regardless of the brewers size.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 15, 2014

beorhthelm said:
not sure how you think brewing is done, but unless you're talking nano-breweries making and serving on the premises, its all industrial methods. the difference between Brewdog and Bitburger is the number and size of the stainless steal vats they use. even home brew pretty soon starts to get technical (shiney toys ).

agree there's too much us and them, which is partially why i dislike the craft beer term, its another faultline along which some will decide not to cross. there's no style or approach to beer making thats inherently bad, just sometimes bad product (mostly the continental cooking lagers and american rice-bulked lagers - i think theres common ground there at least?)

So, what does a nano do differently which means they are not industrial methods then?

Hugo Rune · Feb 15, 2014

Cesar Chavez said:
This will be my last post on terminology, but I can't let your description of the term 'craft' go uncorrected. It is simply not true to say that it is applied only to small breweries not making lager. Many of the craft brewers I'm familar with are proud of their lagers, we discuseed some particular impressive Kolch style lagers, brewed by self declared craft brewers on this very thread. Liker the other chap who is offended by the concept, please do some research before leaping in. Also craft beer can be keg, or cask - just not so much of that about.
Anyway, let's now stick to enjoying, decent beer, brewed by folk who respect different styles and taste and who don't want to squeeze the opposition out of existence.

In complete agreement with this. For years, CAMRA had the monopoly on taste in this country but not anymore. I grew up being utterly jealous of the Germans and Belgiums with their chilled and fizzy brews that actually tasted nice! I have never been able to appreciate beer that is warm and flat even if it does taste great and has a great nose etc; I have tried but to no avail. Equally Fosters and the like rot my soul and I drink them purely for the alcohol. Having just sunk a bottle of ice cold Brewdog IPA, I can safely say that I no longer have to scour supermarkets and pubs for something sounding like it's from Belgium or Germany, there are now so many drinkable beers out there it's wonderul. This is my view of craft and I appreciate it may well differ from many others but I don't care because I adore the amount of new and interesting beers on the market.

Pogue Mahone · Feb 15, 2014

Hugo Rune said:
In complete agreement with this. For years, CAMRA had the monopoly on taste in this country but not anymore. I grew up being utterly jealous of the Germans and Belgiums with their chilled and fizzy brews that actually tasted nice! I have never been able to appreciate beer that is warm and flat even if it does taste great and has a great nose etc; I have tried but to no avail. Equally Fosters and the like rot my soul and I drink them purely for the alcohol. Having just sunk a bottle of ice cold Brewdog IPA, I can safely say that I no longer have to scour supermarkets and pubs for something sounding like it's from Belgium or Germany, there are now so many drinkable beers out there it's wonderul. This is my view of craft and I appreciate it may well differ from many others but I don't care because I adore the amount of new and interesting beers on the market.

This sums it up for me. All of it.

beorhthelm · Feb 15, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
So, what does a nano do differently which means they are not industrial methods then?

batches so small they dont use alot of industrial kit. to be fair i dont know what your definition is, i assume semi-automated, computer controlled pipework, steelwork everywhere, kegging and bottling production lines whiring away, all housed in a dull controlled warehouse. nano or brewpub scale will be more basic, manual control, bit of shiney steel for the fermenation, all housed in a drafty barn or the pubs cellar (this was Dogstar once). from what ive seen, the craft brewers, being modern, are likley more shiney and automated than your traditional brewer like Harvey's.

@ chavez, fair point on the lager, but i was thinking the traditional US big brands. the point remains thats where the term originates, though i've looked it up and the legal def is 6 million barrels, which is a pretty large brewery in real terms. as far as i see it, its an unnecessary term. and stop top posting.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 15, 2014

Hugo Rune said:
In complete agreement with this. For years, CAMRA had the monopoly on taste in this country but not anymore. I grew up being utterly jealous of the Germans and Belgiums with their chilled and fizzy brews that actually tasted nice! I have never been able to appreciate beer that is warm and flat even if it does taste great and has a great nose etc; I have tried but to no avail. Equally Fosters and the like rot my soul and I drink them purely for the alcohol. Having just sunk a bottle of ice cold Brewdog IPA, I can safely say that I no longer have to scour supermarkets and pubs for something sounding like it's from Belgium or Germany, there are now so many drinkable beers out there it's wonderul. This is my view of craft and I appreciate it may well differ from many others but I don't care because I adore the amount of new and interesting beers on the market.

This was pretty much my story and feeling on the matter as well. Plus I have changed my views on real ale and have developed a liking for cask ales. And a chilled Brewdog Punk IPA is simply a glorious beverage :thumbsup:

Like Cesar I will not comment on the terminology again. I just want a thread where a few like minded people can prattle on and talk shite about beer. We're seemingly all united against the huge commercial brewers so let's all raise a glass to good beer!

Pogue Mahone · Feb 15, 2014

I dropped in at Sainsbury's by London Road car park today. Stocked up with Brewdog, and am working through them now. Started with 5am Saint, moved on to Dead Pony Club, which I'm drinking at the moment - only 3.8%, but you wouldn't guess that - and will next open a 660ml bottle of the rather fantastic Punk IPA.

Cheers!

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