Civil War Brewing in the Ukraine?

Blue Valkyrie · Mar 3, 2014

At what point does Putin's 'peacekeepers' become invaders ?

When they enter East Ukraine ? Kiev ? L'viv ? The Polish border ?

When they've killed 1,000 Ukrainians ? 10,000 ?

TWOCHOICEStom · Mar 3, 2014

hybrid_x said:
that's a highly intelligent offering to this thread......sigh.

can anyone coming from the telegraph, times, daily mail, or bbc...please p1ss off out of this thread so a serious debate can be had upon a game of poker occuring that could quickly turn into alot of death to many humans.

current players around the table:

Russian nationalists living in Ukraine.
Ukrainian nationalists livining in Ukraine.
Russia who love their gas pipes' revenue, boating playground in Crimea, and know the west is in serious economic trouble.
The West, who's central banks love another hundred million low paid workers........and who's nations need to help with "goverment debt" (note: not central bank debt).

At the moment - Putin has raised the stakes......and the West are yet to call, fold, or raise.

I have no idea how intelligent you are, but that's one hell of an arrogant post.

Simster · Mar 3, 2014

Reuters said:
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday condemned Russia's "incredible act of aggression" in Ukraine and threatened economic sanctions by the United States and allies to isolate Moscow, but called for a peaceful resolution to the crisis.

"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."

I think this might be the most bare-faced example of hypocrisy I've ever seen from a politician, and we're not short of choice.

Seagull58 · Mar 3, 2014

hybrid_x said:
quotes like this are so strange. What Putin has done could be seen as positive by others.....it's just perspective. e.g people on here thought it positive to send troops to falklands but negative Putin sends troops to Crimea......this perspective is usually down to a disease called nationalism.

One has to laugh at Obama though...."I'm really good at killing people with my illegal drone strikes, but Putin better not think he has a right to do anything I don't approve of, like sending Russian troops in to defend Russians from western funded Nazi's - or else there will be consequences."

You couldn't make it up.

It's not a valid comparison to The Falklands though, is it? The Falklands has been British for 200 years and nearly all the inhabitants desire to stay so. Crimea is part of The Ukraine, not Russia. If the population in crimea desires independence or to cecede to Russia that is a change of nationality not maintaining their current nationality so very different from The Falklands. I'm surprised you didn't refer the The Malvinas.

Simster · Mar 3, 2014

Crimea is only part of Ukraine because Stalin said so 60 years ago. But that part of the world has changed hands dozens of times down the years. In addition, something like half of Crimea consider themselves Russian anyway.

As much as I detest Putin, he probably has more right to be in Crimea than we ever did in Afghanistan and definitely more right than we had in Iraq. So I find all this western outrage and hypocrisy somewhat galling and struggle to take some of the bias Western news sources very seriously on this issue.

Czechmate · Mar 3, 2014

Simster said:
Crimea is only part of Ukraine because Stalin said so 60 years ago. But that part of the world has changed hands dozens of times down the years. In addition, something like half of Crimea consider themselves Russian anyway.

As much as I detest Putin, he probably has more right to be in Crimea than we ever did in Afghanistan and definitely more right than we had in Iraq. So I find all this western outrage and hypocrisy somewhat galling and struggle to take some of the bias Western news sources very seriously on this issue.

Totally agree Simster ! Correctly people have their own opinions but please see the news from a more independent view . I have said before I have quite a few friends in Dnepropetrovsk who are frightened what might happen , they do not want the US or Europe involved and detest the Americans because of their cavalier western attitude , these people were quite happy with the previous president even though he changed some rules un-democratically . It is a very strong alliance with the Russian influence in Dnepropetrovsk so it's not only Crimea , it is most of East Ukraine. Why the hell baldy arse licker Hague couldn't visit another part of Ukraine to get another side of peoples feelings ?

supaseagull · Mar 3, 2014

Simster said:
Crimea is only part of Ukraine because Stalin said so 60 years ago. But that part of the world has changed hands dozens of times down the years. In addition, something like half of Crimea consider themselves Russian anyway.

As much as I detest Putin, he probably has more right to be in Crimea than we ever did in Afghanistan and definitely more right than we had in Iraq. So I find all this western outrage and hypocrisy somewhat galling and struggle to take some of the bias Western news sources very seriously on this issue.

I agree in a way, I don't agree that Putin has more right to send Russians into Crimea than Crimea being part of the Ukraine in general as much as I don't agree with the Chinese and their stance on Tibet.

Trufflehound · Mar 3, 2014

Simster said:
Crimea is only part of Ukraine because Stalin said so 60 years ago. But that part of the world has changed hands dozens of times down the years. In addition, something like half of Crimea consider themselves Russian anyway.

As much as I detest Putin, he probably has more right to be in Crimea than we ever did in Afghanistan and definitely more right than we had in Iraq. So I find all this western outrage and hypocrisy somewhat galling and struggle to take some of the bias Western news sources very seriously on this issue.

It was Krushchev who gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. Stalin was dead by then.

Pedantry aside however, I more or less agree.

seagullsovergrimsby · Mar 3, 2014

Blue Valkyrie said:
RT News is French ? ? ?

It's Russian and stands for Russia Today.

Putin's mouthpiece

RT is the Russian equivalent of Fox News.

somerset · Mar 3, 2014

Simster said:
he probably has more right to be in Crimea than we ever did in Afghanistan ............

Ok, so Ukraine is hosting training camps for international terrorism is it?, Ukraine shuns democracy and flogs and dismembers members of its population in the name of religion, Ukraine must also then, block any education for females and ban any form of music or film?!!??...... No??...... thought not.

somerset · Mar 3, 2014

Czechmate said:
these people were quite happy with the previous president even though he changed some rules un-democratically

But of course not forgetting that Ukraine is a democracy, and that fundamental changes on the magnitude of one such as the future economic direction and policy of the nation isn't one that should be at the whim of the top man and his cronies alone. So because he was of a mind to sign up to the Russian economic deal instead of the long planned deal with the EU, and at the same time completely disregard huge swathes of Ukrainian national opinion, thats ok is it?

daveinprague · Mar 3, 2014

somerset said:
Ok, so Ukraine is hosting training camps for international terrorism is it?, Ukraine shuns democracy and flogs and dismembers members of its population in the name of religion, Ukraine must also then, block any education for females and ban any form of music or film?!!??...... No??...... thought not.

And what do the things listed, give the United Kingdom the right to occupy Afghanistan?

somerset · Mar 3, 2014

I wondered where you were........

When those terrorists are targeting Britain and British citizens around the world, I think that would be fair, dont you?

....and as you are surely an internationalist, ( assumed by the tone of your previous posting history), then you will also surely subscribe to mutual cross border, international economic and political cooperation with the aim of long term benefits for all, not just short term local gains........ or are you just selective about when to care, and when not to?

daveinprague · Mar 3, 2014

Wondered where I was? Ridiculous comment if you only check back one or two pages.

Im sorry, but we WENT TO WAR and occupied Afghanistan way before any attack on Britain, and the 7/7 attack was specificilly about the war in Irag.

Let me put it another way, apart from being Americas lapdog, and helping them fight their wars, mostly, brought about due to their own foreign policies, which in turn has made us and British interests around the world, targets, why were we occupying Afghanistan.

Blue Valkyrie · Mar 3, 2014

It is possible to be against British involvement in Afganistan and Iraq, and to be disgusted with Putin.

One of Putin's henchmen is now talking of genocide going on in Kiev. Is the BBC so biased that it is hushing 'the killing' up ?

It's an excuse to take the whole of Ukraine, and it will start in the next few days.

What is Obama's line in the sand ? Airstrikes on Kiev ? Russian tanks in L'viv ? 1000 Ukrainians dead ? 10,000?

Is anything OK as long as it happens to the east of the border with Poland?

Perhaps if Putin gets away with it, he'll fancy Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia 'back' next.

Well by then we'll boycott the World Cup in Russia - that will really teach him a lesson, eh?

Uncle Buck · Mar 3, 2014

How can anyone justify that Russia has a right to be in the Crimea, on the basis that it is backing Russian ethnics, who have chosen in the 90's to be Ukranian rather than Russian, is beyond me. Russia is not respecting the rights of Ukrainian sovereignty, pure and simple.

If the Crimea wants to become part of Russia it needs to hold a referendum and let the people decide, not kick out its elected leader and replace him with a pro Russian that achieve 4% of the vote at the last election. I know Kiev does not have an elected leader at present, but there are plans in place for an election.

Slightly simplistic, but if those Russians in Crimea where desperate to be Russians, in the 90's when the Soviet Union broke up, they should have headed back to Russia then. The same issue exists in the Baltics, but the difference there is those 3 nations are in NATO, so any Putin desires would lead to a military stand off with NATO.

The West has been wishy washing in its response, really the 1994 treaty means we have an obligation to protect Ukrainian sovereignty. In reality nobody wants another land war in Europe, we have only just finished paying off the last one and whilst we achieve the moral high ground, we lost an empire and nearly bankrupt the place in the process.

However Russia has in fact carried out an act of war against Ukraine.

Pop a few submarines in the straits to the Black Sea and see where the Russians stand then....

Czechmate · Mar 3, 2014

somerset said:
But of course not forgetting that Ukraine is a democracy, and that fundamental changes on the magnitude of one such as the future economic direction and policy of the nation isn't one that should be at the whim of the top man and his cronies alone. So because he was of a mind to sign up to the Russian economic deal instead of the long planned deal with the EU, and at the same time completely disregard huge swathes of Ukrainian national opinion, thats ok is it?

Then vote him out at the next election that's democratic , you don't hire and get as many thugs you can get to threaten the parliament with violence ! I think also you will find the majority want to stay under the Russian influence , it's not all about Kiev and Lviv and the EU border cities you know , it's a massive country .

Uncle Buck · Mar 3, 2014

Czechmate said:
Then vote him out at the next election that's democratic , you don't hire and get as many thugs you can get to threaten the parliament with violence ! I think also you will find the majority want to stay under the Russian influence , it's not all about Kiev and Lviv and the EU border cities you know , it's a massive country .

I am not sure that is the case, yes they are Russian in origin in the east, but they see more of a future by being western leaning. It is a fairly right wing country (often the case with one that has been the junior partner in an empire), so nationalism is high.

seagullsovergrimsby · Mar 3, 2014

daveinprague said:
Wondered where I was? Ridciulous comment if you only check back one or two pages.

Im sorry, but we WENT TO WAR and occupied Afghanistan way before any attack on Britain, and the 7/7 attack was specificilly about the war in Irag.

Let me put it another way, apart from being Americas lapdog, and helping them fight their wars, mostly, brought about due to their own foreign polocies, which in turn has made us and British interestes around the world, targets, why were we occupying Afghanistan.

Events didn't go very well for the British Army in Afghanistan back in 1842 and even worse still twelve years later in The Crimea.

Theatre of Trees · Mar 3, 2014

Trufflehound said:
It was Krushchev who gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. Stalin was dead by then.

Pedantry aside however, I more or less agree.

Though Stalin did deport the Crimean Tatars, the original indigenous population of the peninsula, and shunted them off to Siberia to be replaced by incoming Russians.

One thing the Soviets did during their time in power was manage populations particularly in regard to what were the 'autonomous' republics, either areas were bolted onto historical provinces (See the Russian breakaway Dneister republic in Moldova - recognised by nobody, and the eastern portion of Ukraine) or encouraged immigration into areas to dilute nationalism (See the significant Slav minorities in Latvia - about 40% and Estonia - about 30%). Then there were the smaller nationalities who were removed to Siberia during the Second World War (See Crimean Tatars and Chechens - though the latter were able to force their way back) or just kicked out of the country (See Poles from western Ukraine, Germans from what is now Kaliningrad). All this has a bearing on the current situation and will provide a number of future flash points.

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