[Politics] Brexit

Lincoln Imp · Aug 25, 2017

JC Footy Genius said:
Scotland is a country. Your argument was partly based on the this ....

If it's ok for them to have a simple yes/no referendum placing a hugely complex issue in splendid isolation to decide to break from a 300-year-old union

I can't really follow your second sentence but, yes, I know Scotland is a country. It is also (at the moment) a region of the UK. Your point?

I can understand your point regarding the union and in fact I paused over over my original comment before posting. However, I believe I am right in saying Westminster could not possibly be qualified to decide on this particular issue. It is just not realistic for a legislature 300 miles away, mainly concerned with other matters, to decide the future of what you yourself describe (rightly) as a country. It is, however, entirely within the competence of the UK government to decide the future direction of the UK. It should have been allowed to.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Aug 25, 2017

Boris strikes again. Oh dear. Surely no-one in the Brexit camp is comfortable with the antics of this clown?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hnson-concedes-uk-will-have-to-pay-for-brexit

Two Professors · Aug 25, 2017

GT49er said:
2003 listed?

Just asking, because I don't know the answer.

Join date,you're Feb 2009,for example.

Westdene Seagull · Aug 25, 2017

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Boris strikes again. Oh dear. Surely no-one in the Brexit camp is comfortable with the antics of this clown?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hnson-concedes-uk-will-have-to-pay-for-brexit

I'm not sure what point, if any, you're actually trying to make ?

BJ said previously the EU could go whistle for their rumoured £100bn - he, and the government, has always said we would pay our liabilities. It's just they aren't £100bn !!!!

Albumen · Aug 25, 2017

Cash or cheque for the £60b+ ?
Couldn't we ask every 1% of leavers to stump up £1b each to pay for the first 52 BILLiON POUNDS? Seems fair.

Two Professors · Aug 25, 2017

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Boris strikes again. Oh dear. Surely no-one in the Brexit camp is comfortable with the antics of this clown?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hnson-concedes-uk-will-have-to-pay-for-brexit

Cannot see the problem.If you get presented a bill after your meal in a restaurant and it says 20,000 Euros,surely you would query it?If it says 200 Euros then you know you have just been moderately overcharged and probably won't return.Common sense.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Aug 25, 2017

Two Professors said:
Cannot see the problem.If you get presented a bill after your meal in a restaurant and it says 20,000 Euros,surely you would query it?If it says 200 Euros then you know you have just been moderately overcharged and probably won't return.Common sense.

Interesting analogy. And if we pursue it then Bojo went into the restaurant boldly claiming that under no circumstances would he pay the bill and then cops for it. Or even more apposite he takes the rest of us into the restaurant on those terms and then shamefully admits that we've got to pay after all......................(Although I suspect Boris has no concept of shame.)

Westdene Seagull · Aug 25, 2017

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Interesting analogy. And if we pursue it then Bojo went into the restaurant boldly claiming that under no circumstances would he pay the bill and then cops for it. Or even more apposite he takes the rest of us into the restaurant on those terms and then shamefully admits that we've got to pay after all......................(Although I suspect Boris has no concept of shame.)

Which is nothing like what he did. If you insist on the analogy it's more like he went in, ate and on asking for the bill he noticed he was being hugely over charged - he didn't say he wouldn't pay A bill - the CORRECT bill - just that he wouldn't pay THAT bill because it was wrong.

JC Footy Genius · Aug 25, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
I can't really follow your second sentence but, yes, I know Scotland is a country. It is also (at the moment) a region of the UK. Your point?

I can understand your point regarding the union and in fact I paused over over my original comment before posting. However, I believe I am right in saying Westminster could not possibly be qualified to decide on this particular issue. It is just not realistic for a legislature 300 miles away, mainly concerned with other matters, to decide the future of what you yourself describe (rightly) as a country. It is, however, entirely within the competence of the UK government to decide the future direction of the UK. It should have been allowed to.

Comparisons with planning permission for a football ground or 'regional' issues is a very different scale to a country ending the political union with the UK .. as you know.

I'm not sure what distance has to do with anything, mind you Brussels is a long way from London.

Following your line of argument, issues are either too complex to be decided by referendum or they are not .. be they 'regional' or National'. I could see a better line of reasoning from an argument that stated the if the Scottish government was voted in on a manifesto promising to end links with the Union it should be respected. I would obviously oppose this as people vote for governments for numerous reasons (SNP landslide government but vote against independence) which is why such important issues should be seperated to a referendum.

JC Footy Genius · Aug 25, 2017

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Boris strikes again. Oh dear. Surely no-one in the Brexit camp is comfortable with the antics of this clown?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hnson-concedes-uk-will-have-to-pay-for-brexit

The Guardian :facepalm:

https://order-order.com/2017/08/25/guardian-brexit-coverage-bewildering-remainers/

Speaking of the Guardian, no one ever got back to me about this example of p*ss poor reporting.

JC Footy Genius said:
I did promise you a Remain example

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ould-spawn-legal-morass-and-economic-disaster - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/cost-of-no-deal/

Garry Nelson's teacher · Aug 25, 2017

Westdene Seagull said:
Which is nothing like what he did. If you insist on the analogy it's more like he went in, ate and on asking for the bill he noticed he was being hugely over charged - he didn't say he wouldn't pay A bill - the CORRECT bill - just that he wouldn't pay THAT bill because it was wrong.

So do you remember anyone on the Brexit side before the referendum even acknowledging that there would be a divorce bill, yet alone that we would be obliged to pay it? Either they didn't realise (!) or they were gung-ho that we could simply get way with it................and .run out of the restaurant without paying the bill. (I can actually visualise this as a Boris/Bullingdon -type ruse). On a broader level, BJ is a fiscal car crash - as his time as London Mayor now evidences. Were I a Brexiter I would feel ashamed that he is the flag-bearer. Any takers?

GT49er · Aug 25, 2017

Two Professors said:
Join date,you're Feb 2009,for example.

Oh I see - thanks for the explanation. Didn't know they had special privileges!

Lincoln Imp · Aug 25, 2017

JC Footy Genius said:
Comparisons with planning permission for a football ground or 'regional' issues is a very different scale to a country ending the political union with the UK .. as you know.

I'm not sure what distance has to do with anything, mind you Brussels is a long way from London.

Following your line of argument, issues are either too complex to be decided by referendum or they are not .. be they 'regional' or National'. I could see a better line of reasoning from an argument that stated the if the Scottish government was voted in on a manifesto promising to end links with the Union it should be respected. I would obviously oppose this as people vote for governments for numerous reasons (SNP landslide government but vote against independence) which is why such important issues should be seperated to a referendum.[/QUOTE

You're right - I didn't consider the Scottish Parliament in my haste to say that there are some decisions that are best made away from Westminster. I would prefer a big issue such as national independence to be decided by elected representatives in parliament rather than directly by the people because it makes a more nuanced and considered judgment more likely. It is not a question of complexity or of ordinary people being too thick to make big calls.

Two Professors · Aug 25, 2017

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
So do you remember anyone on the Brexit side before the referendum even acknowledging that there would be a divorce bill, yet alone that we would be obliged to pay it? Either they didn't realise (!) or they were gung-ho that we could simply get way with it................and .run out of the restaurant without paying the bill. (I can actually visualise this as a Boris/Bullingdon -type ruse). On a broader level, BJ is a fiscal car crash - as his time as London Mayor now evidences. Were I a Brexiter I would feel ashamed that he is the flag-bearer. Any takers?

I didn't wish reading this thread from the start on anybody,but in your case I will make an exception!Does £350 million a week not ring even the faintest of bells with you?Most people realise we will pay this until we leave,or whatever figure the concensus agrees on.This is the Brexit Bill.Anything we want to claim back from this extortion,or Barmier and his la-la-land buddies try to add on top is what is being disputed.Nothing to do with car crashes,or mayors of anywhere.

Two Professors · Aug 25, 2017

GT49er said:
Oh I see - thanks for the explanation. Didn't know they had special privileges!

And more than one identity,in some cases,for reasons best known to them.

Two Professors · Aug 25, 2017

Perhaps the 'Britain is doomed and the EU is heaven on Earth' crew could explain why EU citizens are applying for British passports?

beorhthelm · Aug 25, 2017

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
So do you remember anyone on the Brexit side before the referendum even acknowledging that there would be a divorce bill, yet alone that we would be obliged to pay it?

yes i do. it was raised and suggested that we'd have to pay into the EU to the end of the budget cycle in 2020, with some harrumphing about that. what the EU is asking for is, quite oddly, for us to pay for projects that either already completed (so why is there ongoing expediture?) and for projects not yet budgeted for. what you should really be asking is, why is the EU mismangaging its finances so badly that apparently it needs to sting us for 60-80bn more than if we stayed in, and how much the payment will be going up after 2020. our obligation is for 2 years and maybe pensions (which seems are unfunded) and no more.

portslade seagull · Aug 25, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
[MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] has been banned from this thread for abuse, particularly a post mid-night tirade.

Maybe it's time for the thread to be locked altogether by the mods if the supposed bullying of posters has got this bad. MODS

Baldseagull · Aug 25, 2017

JC Footy Genius said:
The Guardian

https://order-order.com/2017/08/25/guardian-brexit-coverage-bewildering-remainers/

Speaking of the Guardian, no one ever got back to me about this example of p*ss poor reporting.

You tell me what the issues are with it, apart from the clumsy segue into the Brexit departments legal bill, seems fine to me.

Baldseagull · Aug 25, 2017

Two Professors said:
Perhaps the 'Britain is doomed and the EU is heaven on Earth' crew could explain why EU citizens are applying for British passports?

View attachment 88537

Because they have built a life here and don't want to risk being turfed out in a few months time. My nephew is seeking German citizenship for precisely the same reason, he wants to keep his life there and wants some certainty.

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