Malaysian airline crash

Creaky said:

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/591308...l-commander-take-credit-for-shooting-down-the

"The VK account may not actually be run by Strelkov at all. BuzzFeed's Max Seddon spoke to eastern Ukrainian rebels who said the page "is a fake made by fans." If that's the case, it may be that Strelkov fanboys saw the plane go down, surmised (perhaps wrongly) that rebels had shot them down, and bragged about it on the VK page. It is also possible, to be fair, that the rebels were lying to Seddon about the VK page."

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Oh my oh my....... Strelkovs page is most certainly genuine, as many of my family/friends followed it for months .... Since the downing of the jet Strelkov deleted posts bragging rebels downed it, the DNR on their official twitter deleted they received BUK missiles from Russia (which was on their official twitter site for 2 Weeks) and they now say every wire tap of their leaders admitting shooting down Mh17 is fake (western intelligence say they're genuine) and all the deleted admissions of guilt on their official social media were in fact fakes.... But it works, people with very little knowledge of what's been said before or by facts can easily become confused and swallow disinformation

Look out for the story from the State Department that it was a Ukrainian Army defector who helped the rebels fire the missile.

peterward said:

Oh my oh my....... Strelkovs page is most certainly genuine, as many of my family/friends followed it for months .... Since the downing of the jet Strelkov deleted posts bragging rebels downed it, the DNR on their official twitter deleted they received BUK missiles from Russia (which was on their official twitter site for 2 Weeks) and they now say every wire tap of their leaders admitting shooting down Mh17 is fake (western intelligence say they're genuine) and all the deleted admissionws of guilt on their official social media were in fact fakes.... But it works, people with very little knowledge of what's been said before or by facts can easily become confused and swallow disinformation

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The recordings were posted on the Ukrainian Secret Service facebook page, they are not verified at all.

It's quite funny how some seem desparate to disbelieve the only credible explanation.

Putin's propaganda machine is far too efficient.

Blue Valkyrie said:

It's quite funny how some seem desparate to disbelieve the only credible explanation.

Putin's propaganda machine is far too efficient.

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Haha, to be honest, from my perspective it's been like trying to have a sensible, non-football conversation about Croydon on here.

dingodan said:

The recordings were posted on the Ukrainian Secret Service facebook page, they are not verified at all.

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Yes they were but I read (and will try and find again) specific intelligence analysis from other intelligence services on those wiretaps that said they were almost certainly real.

Expanding on your USA has satellite images that show Ukraine did it conspiracy theory, the last line in this article that the us shared it's data with the Un means they both can't be right...... Full info on 2 of the 8 separate wiretaps where Russian military and dnr admit to having the buk missiles and/or downing mh17

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/07/19/what-more-smoking-guns-are-needed-for-mh17-the-worlds-first-sam-terrorism/

peterward said:

Yes they were but I read (and will try and find again) specific intelligence analysis from other intelligence services on those wiretaps that said they were almost certainly real.

Expanding on your USA has satellite images that show Ukraine did it conspiracy theory, the last line in this article that the us shared it's data with the Un means they both can't be right...... Full info on 2 of the 8 separate wiretaps where Russian military and dnr admit to having the buk missiles and/or downing mh17

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/07/19/what-more-smoking-guns-are-needed-for-mh17-the-worlds-first-sam-terrorism/

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In the recording there is audio of the Rebels talking about having downed an aircraft, as has been pointed out, they have downed aircraft in recent weeks. There is also audio of the Rebels identifying a crashed plane as being a civilian airliner (MH17) but this is a different conversation, it's not a continuation of the same conversation of bringing down a plane. I think that is important to note.

"On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).

“The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we (at USIA) had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of (Richard Nixon's secretary) Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”

But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote."

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/18/facts-needed-on-malaysian-plane-shoot-down/

dingodan said:

In the recording there is audio of the Rebels talking about having downed an aircraft, as has been pointed out, they have downed aircraft in recent weeks. There is also audio of the Rebels identifying a crashed plane as being a civilian airliner (MH17) but this is a different conversation, it's not a continuation of the same conversation of bringing down a plane. I think that is important to note.

"On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).

“The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we (at USIA) had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of (Richard Nixon's secretary) Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”

But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote."

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/18/facts-needed-on-malaysian-plane-shoot-down/

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your attempts to try and play devils advocate may be admirable (there's a job for you in the kremlin), but your statement is factually incorrect, in the first recorded timestamped conversation the rebel leader Bezler admits to his russian intelligence handler not only that they shot down an aircraft (to play your game and try and believe it could be a different aircraft on a different day) but he is also explicit and states where that unit was located in Yenekiejva, its exactly where the BUKS have been identified in russian cossak controlled rebel territory, where eye witness accounts now say BUK was seen and is completely in keeping with the projected flight path after missile hit and the eventual crash site near Rozsypne/Toez.

No doubt that other countries have fabricated or lied about other events at other times, but that has nothing to do with the overwhelming evidence that points to a BUK SAM supplied by Russian being fired from rebel held territory bought down MH17.... FYI russian state controlled news outlet ria novosti reported that a ukrainian military aircraft was shot down at 1613 on 17th, minutes before MH17 was shot down (that was admitted by numerous rebels until realised it was civilian).... and if you've followed the WHOLE ukrainian crisis, there have been a number of other occasions where russian press have reported an incident before it happened.

Putin is a not a liberal, sociocrat politician, he is a former KGB/soviet spy, whose an expert in the dark arts or subterfuge, lies, misinformation. He could never admit russia may have been involved as that would be to admit russia is involved and orchestrating the ukrainian chaos .... it stands to reason that to delay and tamper with the crash site is to try and ensure that any conclusion can always be argued as inconclusive.

he doesn't care that the evidence is substantial and overwhelming as long as there is a small chink of misinformation that can be applied, his professional progagandists will be in overdrive trying to muddy the waters and deny everything by pointing in any direction other than russia.

It is nothing more than Russian propaganda, Putin has openly called Goebells "a talented man" and it is Goebells that famously said "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself"

I'm sure you realise that Russian media have put forward many theories about MH17 (and not ONE substantial bit of evidence however circumstantial other than words in media sources), the ukraine goverment did it, is but one of many diversionary ideas.

Maybe 2 of the more bizarre relate to the AIDS awareness officials who died (maybe you can argue they could be real?), one is that they were about to announce a cure for AIDS but the US is intent on keeping global populations down and therefore...........

And the second relates to a known lie that was spread many years ago from russia, Operation"Infektion"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_INFEKTION (that many people in the former USSR like my mother in law, without any other outside reference still believe to be true!!), that AIDS was created in US laboratories to attack various alleged undesirables listed as homosexuals/black people and this story was picked up and published by an Indian newspaper in 1993 before other news outlets quoted the indian newspaper all over the world and then russian news reports what the world is alleging......voila the myth is perpetuated and many still today believe it...... well in lifenews in Russia another theory put forward is that the HIV campaigners on boards were about to prove conclusively to the world that the US did in fact create HIV and therefore............

maybe that does sound ridiculous to you and its design is for the domestic audience but really, to get inside the pysche of someone whose only reference is Soviet/russian state controlled TV and they actually WILL believe that more than any suggestion it could have been russia.

luckily there are informed intellectual citizens in Russia who read world news and some of those were outside the dutch embassy laying flowers, begging for forgiveness for their countries actions http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/560002/20140723/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-dutch-embassy-memorial.htm luckily they dont believe any of the the many "anyone but russia" conspiracy theories

Blue Valkyrie said:

It's quite funny how some seem desparate to disbelieve the only credible explanation.

Putin's propaganda machine is far too efficient.

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I think it's highly likely that the rebels were responsible for the downing of the Malaysian airline. There is I agree a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing in that direction as well as evidence that it was a terrible mistake on their part. I have seen no evidence to suggest that there was a deliberate intent to hit a civilian aircraft.

What I find disturbing are the calls for various levels of action, from local economic sanctions all the way through to full military action against Russia!

Before any 'reprisals' are put into action I believe it is necessary for all scenarios to be explored - the aircraft concerned belonged to Malaysia and was flying from the Netherlands. These two countries should in my opinion be the lead investigators and quite frankly the USA should back off in terms of political statements and criticism of potential culprits until a full investigation has been completed.

The idea that anyone who questions statements coming out of Kiev and Washington or put forward alternative scenarios are puppets of Moscow is ludicrous.

This entire incident needs to be put into perspective - of course it is terrible that so many lost their lives in such circumstances but to consider embarking on actions that will cause far more to lose their's is madness.

It's a shame that more publicity, diplomatic efforts and practical action isn't being taken in causes that could save lives rather than to cause lives to be lost. On the news this morning there was passing reference to the 219 kidnapped schoolgirls who have been missing for 100 days following their capture by 'rebels'. Why isn't there the same diplomatic concern and discussion of retribution over these children who could be helped as there is over those who unfortunately are now beyond our assistance?

Creaky said:

I think it's highly likely that the rebels were responsible for the downing of the Malaysian airline. There is I agree a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing in that direction as well as evidence that it was a terrible mistake on their part. I have seen no evidence to suggest that there was a deliberate intent to hit a civilian aircraft.

What I find disturbing are the calls for various levels of action, from local economic sanctions all the way through to full military action against Russia!

Before any 'reprisals' are put into action I believe it is necessary for all scenarios to be explored - the aircraft concerned belonged to Malaysia and was flying from the Netherlands. These two countries should in my opinion be the lead investigators and quite frankly the USA should back off in terms of political statements and criticism of potential culprits until a full investigation has been completed.

The idea that anyone who questions statements coming out of Kiev and Washington or put forward alternative scenarios are puppets of Moscow is ludicrous.

This entire incident needs to be put into perspective - of course it is terrible that so many lost their lives in such circumstances but to consider embarking on actions that will cause far more to lose their's is madness.

It's a shame that more publicity, diplomatic efforts and practical action isn't being taken in causes that could save lives rather than to cause lives to be lost. On the news this morning there was passing reference to the 219 kidnapped schoolgirls who have been missing for 100 days following their capture by 'rebels'. Why isn't there the same diplomatic concern and discussion of retribution over these children who could be helped as there is over those who unfortunately are now beyond our assistance?

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What actions are you talking about that will cause more lives to be lost?

Rebels' MH17 Site 'Sabotage Plan' Intercepted

British intelligence has evidence to suggest pro-Russian separatists discussed scattering other plane parts at the crash site.........

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http://news.sky.com/story/1306134/rebels-mh17-site-sabotage-plan-intercepted

martyn20 said:

What actions are you talking about that will cause more lives to be lost?

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Much of the rhetoric coming out of Kiev is overtly calling for help in direct action against the rebels and their Russian support.

The majority of the calls for direct military intervention though have come from various media sources around the world - even parts of the Dutch media have made calls for their forces to be sent to Ukraine!

martyn20 said:

http://news.sky.com/story/1306134/rebels-mh17-site-sabotage-plan-intercepted

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And

Very good article...

Call it Putin’s Lockerbie moment—the week the world’s attitudes toward Russia’s leader tipped from wary distrust into frank hostility. It has been a precipitous descent. Just a few months ago Putin’s international standing was at an all-time high as he presided over the Sochi Olympics and released imprisoned oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky and Pussy Riot. But his reputation began its downward slalom with Russia’s occupation of Crimea. And now it has gone off a cliff as Putin’s name has become inextricably linked to the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

“Politics is about control of the imaginary—and [MH17] has become symbolic of something deeper,” says Mark Galeotti, clinical professor of global affairs at New York University. “It is becoming very difficult not to regard Putin’s Russia as essentially an aggressive, subversive and destabilizing nation.”...

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http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/01/putins-ukraine-mistakes-have-made-him-pariah-260303.html

Creaky said:

Much of the rhetoric coming out of Kiev is overtly calling for help in direct action against the rebels and their Russian support.

The majority of the calls for direct military intervention though have come from various media sources around the world - even parts of the Dutch media have made calls for their forces to be sent to Ukraine!

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I have not heard of anyone calling for military intervention

Creaky said:

And

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Seems strange they would do this if they were not responsible?

Pity when the Kiev new parliament was in place all they were interested in was getting financial support , ass lick the US and the EU , visited Lviv and Odessa only , the prime minister travelled the world to see anyone and everyone , perhaps if they concentrated more on their own people and visited Crimea and East Ukraine to talk and find out what they want/think this war may never have happened and the following tragedies , if there was strong support to join Russia then so be it , if they wanted to stay in Ukraine then that's fine also . Now we have got war and nobody knows what is going to happen . It is unbelievable no one in Kiev was not interested in the thoughts of their own countrymen .

The East as well as the West

dingodan said:

The recordings were posted on the Ukrainian Secret Service facebook page.

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That is one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Amazing.

martyn20 said:

Seems strange they would do this if they were not responsible?

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I see.

Don't you just love articles based on, "according to Sky sources", "Sky sources in Whitehall", "sources claimed", all in an article with the definitive headline "Rebels' MH17 Site 'Sabotage Plan' Intercepted"

dingodan said:

You can't really say that and be serious.

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why not? on the one hand there was (and still is remaining) first hand, live reports of an event by those who did it. on the other you have second or third hand unattributed sources a week later saying something to the contrary. either you are saying those original claims - gloats - are fake or you simply dismiss them. if we accept they exist, what motive is there for them to be lies? none, so we should conclude they are real and true. therefore later, unattributed claims that an alternative event occurred, must be lies. they cannot both be true.

its noticeable that all those reporting the contrary story have an axe to grind against the establishment or generally nailed their mast to the conspiracy subcultre, or are pro-Russian. the conclusion is they have an agenda to either make up or be a conduit for made up stories.