[Football] Should Maty Ryan boycott the Asia Cup?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Dec 20, 2018

studio150 said:
What next, Dunk shouldn't travel with the England squad for the UEFA Nations League Finals on the basis that its a Mickey Mouse competition and he would be better off having a longer post season rest so that he's fully fit for the start of the 2019/20 PL season

On the basis that the compo clashes with Brighton games. Which it doesn't, so why would he not travel?

Whilst I'd be very pleased if Maty develops a sudden attack of virtigo that prevents him ascending above 3000 feet I'd be more than happy, but I suspect we will have to take this one on the chin, like very other PL club with non-EU foreign internationals does.

Green Cross Code Man · Dec 20, 2018

Bakero said:
Well, you'd struggle to get an English passport

Passports are a fairly modern invention and in my book are not a prerequisite for what constitutes a country.

nicko31 said:
Just a region of the UK, like Tasmania is to Australia and a similar size...

Beg to differ. The country of England has a long historic tradition of its own, something that Tasmania has never enjoyed. It is simply linked to the UK in a marriage of convenience.

beorhthelm said:
England is a nation, UK is a country.

I am pretty sure that you'd get short shrift if you referred to 'fellow countrymen' whilst in the company of Scots, and I'd be with them on that. England is my country, always has been always will be. A country is as much a state of mind as much as a physical reality. Otherwise immigrants could never feel English if their heritage was not Anglo-Saxon.

Triggaaar said:
Read up on what makes a country. We're not.

Consider the sporting sense, 'Represent your country' becomes a complete nonsense when talking of playing for England, Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland if you are correct. Country, Nation etc are interchangeable and fluid and if you look online there is no clear agreement or concensus regarding the issue.

Psychobilly freakout · Dec 20, 2018

Silly question alert, and I've asked some in my time so should know.

Big fat, yes he should no greater honour than representing your country, I will be supporting him and the Australian squad during the tournament. It can only increase his standing and value.....

Please god no, don't get injured though....
Even if he did, it could happen in a league game, so no hard feelings.

Triggaaar · Dec 20, 2018

Green Cross Code Man said:
Consider the sporting sense, 'Represent your country' becomes a complete nonsense when talking of playing for England, Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland if you are correct. Country, Nation etc are interchangeable and fluid and if you look online there is no clear agreement or concensus regarding the issue.

To 'represent your country' is not exactly an official definition of what is and what isn't a country. It makes sense for them to use the term for the home nations.

But as a proper term, no, country and nation are not interchangeable, they mean different things.
A county needs to be recognised as a country by other countries, it generally has things like its own army, control over its borders, its own government, its own currency.

Most countries in the EU no longer have their own currency, but they do have the power to leave and use their own currency again should they wish.

England doesn't have any of the things required. We can't vote for a government without the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish having a say. We can't prevent any of those nations from entering at will.

burnee54 · Dec 20, 2018

Psychobilly freakout said:
Silly question alert, and I've asked some in my time so should know.

Big fat, yes he should no greater honour than representing your country, I will be supporting him and the Australian squad during the tournament. It can only increase his standing and value.....

Please god no, don't get injured though....
Even if he did, it could happen in a league game, so no hard feelings.

Do you mean make him taller

?

GOM · Dec 20, 2018

Triggaaar said:
To 'represent your country' is not exactly an official definition of what is and what isn't a country. It makes sense for them to use the term for the home nations.

But as a proper term, no, country and nation are not interchangeable, they mean different things.
A county needs to be recognised as a country by other countries, it generally has things like its own army, control over its borders, its own government, its own currency.

Most countries in the EU no longer have their own currency, but they do have the power to leave and use their own currency again should they wish.

England doesn't have any of the things required. We can't vote for a government without the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish having a say. We can't prevent any of those nations from entering at will.

According to the ever reliable Wikipedia......

Although not sovereign states, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are countries (depending on context), which collectively form the United Kingdom—a sovereign state that is commonly, but erroneously referred to as a country. The United Kingdom is a Union of four separate countries brought about by a series of International treaties and legislated for by several Acts of Union, the first of which being the Acts of Union 1707 in both the English and Scottish parliaments. While a political Union was created, Scotland and England retained a distinct church, legal system and education system, as a result, the issue of Sovereignty is different in the two countries, in Scotland Sovereignty lies with the people, whereas in England Sovereignty lies with Parliament and the Monarch. Lord President (Lord Cooper stated that "the principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish Constitutional Law", and that legislation contrary to the Act of Union would not necessarily be regarded as constitutionally valid

Two Professors · Dec 20, 2018

Good luck to him playing for his country.Hope his stand-in does such a good job,he can have a bit of a rest afterwards.Perhaps a long stretch.

Green Cross Code Man · Dec 20, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Read up on what makes a country. We're not.

You are looking at it from a law perspective I would imagine.

Here's Wiki's explanation of what comprises the UK: 'The United Kingdom (UK) comprises four countries: England, Scotland and Wales (which collectively make up Great Britain) and Northern Ireland[1][2] (which is variously described as a country, province or region).'

There are hundreds if not thousands of articles referencing England as a country whether that fits your world view or not. We were a sovereign nation (country) well before the UK's existence and most likely will be again. You and many others argue that one defining characteristic of 'country' is sovereignty and an independent monetary system. I am sure that my cousins in Germany will be delighted to know that on that basis their country disappeared down the plughole when the Euro was introduced as will the French and all the other EU nations/countries.

Mackenzie · Dec 20, 2018

hart's shirt said:
It's the best chance he'll have of winning a cup.

boo

Triggaaar · Dec 20, 2018

GOM said:
According to the ever reliable Wikipedia......

Although not sovereign states, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are countries (depending on context), which collectively form the United Kingdom—a sovereign state that is commonly, but erroneously referred to as a country. The United Kingdom is a Union of four separate countries brought about by a series of International treaties and legislated for by several Acts of Union, the first of which being the Acts of Union 1707 in both the English and Scottish parliaments. While a political Union was created, Scotland and England retained a distinct church, legal system and education system, as a result, the issue of Sovereignty is different in the two countries, in Scotland Sovereignty lies with the people, whereas in England Sovereignty lies with Parliament and the Monarch.

Not the first time wiki has it wrong.

The Scottish Unionist Lord Cooper is not really the right person to ask about what is and isn't a country.

Have a look at this:
http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/countries/country_definition.html

We're not individual countries, but our politicians have to say we are, because to admit that we aren't would be political suicide.

nicko31 · Dec 20, 2018

Green Cross Code Man said:
Passports are a fairly modern invention and in my book are not a prerequisite for what constitutes a country.

Beg to differ. The country of England has a long historic tradition of its own, something that Tasmania has never enjoyed. It is simply linked to the UK in a marriage of convenience.

I am pretty sure that you'd get short shrift if you referred to 'fellow countrymen' whilst in the company of Scots, and I'd be with them on that. England is my country, always has been always will be. A country is as much a state of mind as much as a physical reality. Otherwise immigrants could never feel English if their heritage was not Anglo-Saxon.

Consider the sporting sense, 'Represent your country' becomes a complete nonsense when talking of playing for England, Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland if you are correct. Country, Nation etc are interchangeable and fluid and if you look online there is no clear agreement or concensus regarding the issue.

I guess there are only 4 countries in the world

England
Wales
Scotland
Northern Ireland

Anyone else is a sovereign state (or maybe an unofficial one like Kosovo)

Triggaaar · Dec 20, 2018

Green Cross Code Man said:
You are looking at it from a law perspective I would imagine.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of all reasonable definitions of a country that I can find.

There are hundreds if not thousands of articles referencing England as a country whether that fits your world view or not.

No definition of what a country is refers to what articles you can find.

We were a sovereign nation (country) well before the UK's existence

Well we can certainly agree there.

You and many others argue that one defining characteristic of 'country' is sovereignty and an independent monetary system. I am sure that my cousins in Germany will be delighted to know that on that basis their country disappeared down the plughole when the Euro was introduced as will the French and all the other EU nations/countries.

I explained this in my post above. Germany and France have the power to leave the EU and leave the Euro. No one can stop them, it's their right as countries. We cannot leave the UK.

The UK MPs in parliament have the power to leave the EU, if they wish. Meanwhile, the Scottish MPs in the Scottish parliament want to leave the UK, but they cannot - they don't have that power. Only the UK can allow Scotland to leave. England doesn't even have a parliament.

GOM · Dec 20, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Not the first time wiki has it wrong.

The Scottish Unionist Lord Cooper is not really the right person to ask about what is and isn't a country.

Have a look at this:
http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/countries/country_definition.html

We're not individual countries, but our politicians have to say we are, because to admit that we aren't would be political suicide.

I take no credit for Wiki (hence the comment about ever reliable - cannot for some reason use smileys at work on NSC)

However no amount of logical argument, facts or legalese will ever tell me anything different than ENGLAND IS MY COUNTRY.......so there.

Green Cross Code Man · Dec 20, 2018

Triggaaar said:
I'm looking at it from the perspective of all reasonable definitions of a country that I can find.

No definition of what a country is refers to what articles you can find.

Well we can certainly agree there.
I explained this in my post above. Germany and France have the power to leave the EU and leave the Euro. No one can stop them, it's their right as countries. We cannot leave the UK.

The UK MPs in parliament have the power to leave the EU, if they wish. Meanwhile, the Scottish MPs in the Scottish parliament want to leave the UK, but they cannot - they don't have that power. Only the UK can allow Scotland to leave. England doesn't even have a parliament.

But the countries of the UK, were their citizens that way inclined, can vote to leave the UK which in my view is not a country. That makes the argument comparing Germany, France etc leaving the EU void as both sets of possibilities are possible, indeed it is possible that England won't leave the UK but the rest of the UK will leave it and then at least in your view, England will be a country once more. The internet is full of contradictory statements about what a country is or is not. It is NOT clearly defined as it is a grey area particularly with our peculiar arrangement.

Triggaaar · Dec 20, 2018

GOM said:
I take no credit for Wiki (hence the comment about ever reliable - cannot for some reason use smileys at work on NSC)

However no amount of logical argument, facts or legalese will ever tell me anything different than ENGLAND IS MY COUNTRY.......so there.

That's fair enough

I would prefer it if England was a country.

Green Cross Code Man · Dec 20, 2018

Triggaaar said:
That's fair enough

I would prefer it if England was a country.

Even the government refers to England (and the other countries of the UK as 'countries')

'National and subnational mid-year population estimates for the UK and its constituent countries by administrative area, age, sex and components of population change.'

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...almidyearpopulationestimates/previousReleases

GOM · Dec 20, 2018

Triggaaar said:
That's fair enough

I would prefer it if England was a country.

It is a country if you say it is a country. (to you anyway - not legally)

Triggaaar · Dec 20, 2018

Green Cross Code Man said:
But the countries of the UK, were their citizens that way inclined, can vote to leave the UK which in my view is not a country.

But they can't. The Scots were asking for a referendum for decades before the UK finally allowed them to have one.

The internet is full of contradictory statements about what a country is or is not. It is NOT clearly defined as it is a grey area particularly with our peculiar arrangement.

Yes that's true, it is not clearly defined, but literally every general definition of what a country is, means that we're not.

You only get conflicting information when they're specifically referring to the UK, as our politicians cannot say that we're not a group of countries if they ever want to receive votes.

Triggaaar · Dec 20, 2018

Green Cross Code Man said:
Even the government refers to England (and the other countries of the UK as 'countries')

Even? As I've said, of course our government has to say it is. Saying you're a country doesn't make you one.

Green Cross Code Man · Dec 20, 2018

Triggaaar said:
But they can't. The Scots were asking for a referendum for decades before the UK finally allowed them to have one.

Yes that's true, it is not clearly defined, but literally every general definition of what a country is, means that we're not.

You only get conflicting information when they're specifically referring to the UK, as our politicians cannot say that we're not a group of countries if they ever want to receive votes.

As I quoted before, even the govt says we are separate countries. The referendum issue has cropped up several times for Scotland but there hasn't been as big a demand for independence as the nationalists have made out. I am certain that given stronger appeals, that they could achieve it. I also believe that if there was a strong clamour for leaving the UK, then England would be granted that right. These kind of legal arrangements do not interfere with how the inhabitants of a place regard it, i.e. England being distinct from Wales, N. Ireland and Scotland and all sharing a government and all 4 being countries in their own right.

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[Football] Should Maty Ryan boycott the Asia Cup?

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