[Politics] Brexit

portslade seagull said:

Farage has achieved what he wanted and slowly but surely the EU is now changing tact because maybe we have a stronger hand than some of you would like to believe

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Let's face it whatever Farage's says is wrong to a lot of people on here. I am suprised they did not slate before the programme was aired.
Job done Nigel

The Clamp said:

Farage on R4 now, he is of course getting owned because he is a one trick pony. A bore. A political lightweight. A fraud. A two-faced fake.

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I often don't agree with JC but he's on the money with Farage...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38037116

Do we play on people's fears and anxieties? Or do we take what might be the more difficult approach - to restore hope?

JC Footy Genius said:

Quite possibly, I haven't been following it that closely. Whatever the reason it was getting quite tiresome. Hence my terse rebuke.

No need to defend yourself I know you haven't specifically said 'all Brexiteers are thick xenophobes'. Your contributions are far more subtle.

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There's one person who has and his leaver how strange. Perhaps you should have a word with your mate.

Baldseagull said:

If you watch the interview I was commenting on, you will see that Dan Hannan is talking about the kind of access to I am talking about, not the kind of access you are talking about.
Merkel said nothing to change the opinion that the free movement of goods and services comes with the free movement of people too, the only thing she said regarding free movement was that it needs to be clarified as to what an immigrants entitlement to state benefits should be.
If access to the single market had the meaning that you suggest, the leave campaign would not have been highlighting Norway, Iceland and Switzerland.
Quite simply, you're wrong.

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Hannan is entitled to his opinion and his ideas are as valid as yours or mine.
You seem to be fighting a rear guard action to defend the position of June 2016 and you are
interpreting everything that happens in those terms. I think the position has moved on so let's wait and
see. One example of this is the position of Merkel, another Trump's victory and another is that Theresa May who was not involved in the Leave campaign now calls the shots. Her challenge is to find a compromise deal which will appeal both to our European neighbors and the vast majority of the population who want to work together and leave behind the rather tired arguments of anti immigration and EU fanaticism. You and others on here are of course able to continue your absolutist squabbling from the fringes while the rest of us move on.
I am always amused when told I am wrong when giving my opinion. That level of defensiveness usually means a nerve has been hit...

studio150 said:

There's one person who has and his leaver how strange. Perhaps you should have a word with your mate.

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There have been many more than one on the many Brexit threads and entirely on the Remain side. Plus of course the more subtle or implied references to the general stupidity/racism/xenophobia of leave voters.

It's also interesting how many people only seem to notice and pick up on the mistakes, inconsistencies and insults from the other side but seem oblivious to the same behaviour from people on their side of the argument. Ho hum to be expected I suppose.

studio150 said:

There's one person who has and his leaver how strange. Perhaps you should have a word with your mate.

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Okay then, as explained last night.
Post 21960
Quote Originally Posted by The Clamp View Post
The public are too thick to vote on matters like Brexit. How do we know this? The result.

My reply:
So there are over 17 million thick people eh.

This post got a thumbs up from Clamp.

Then post 21965
Quote Originally Posted by Soulman View Post
So there are over 17 million thick people eh.
Correct

So one would assume, as i stated, that your "correct" reply on MY quote, would mean that stating "correct" means you reckon "there are over 17 million thick people".
Which as i have stated before, there are NOT 17m thick leave voters are there.

smeg said:

Well there are around 9 million people in the UK who have not mastered basic reading, writing and maths so i'd surmise they are a bit thick but I wouldn't suggest for a minute everyone who voted leave is stupid. It's a bit like this thread, loads of different angles and some well reasoned arguments on both sides, just none from you i'm afraid.

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It's not relevant to this debate but I just want to challenge your assumption that those who have not mastered basic reading, writing and maths are thick. There has been an enormous amount of research into different learning styles and mismatches between intellect and the skills you mention. The human brain is extremely complex and people have different strengths. I have academic qualifications but consider myself lucky that society measures academic success in a way that suits my brain. There are many people of equal or greater intellect who simply cannot conform to society's norms and measurements.
Perhaps if this were better understood then talent would not be wasted when children cannot concentrate or sit exams successfully. Also, perhaps there would be less insulting references made towards them and their views from other people who perhaps confuse their own success with their intellect.

Soulman said:

Okay then, as explained last night.
Post 21960
Quote Originally Posted by The Clamp View Post
The public are too thick to vote on matters like Brexit. How do we know this? The result.

My reply:
So there are over 17 million thick people eh.

This post got a thumbs up from Clamp.

Then post 21965
Quote Originally Posted by Soulman View Post
So there are over 17 million thick people eh.
Correct

So one would assume, as i stated, that your "correct" reply on MY quote, would mean that stating "correct" means you reckon "there are over 17 million thick people".
Which as i have stated before, there are NOT 17m thick leave voters are there.

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Where have I stated sll leave voters are thick. You continue to be unable to read and understand basic English.
You have also failed (what a surprise) to include your false accusation that I gave stated all leave voters are thick. You only have to read other posts on the number of people who are unable to read oe write. Combine these with people who didnt vote spoilt their ballot papers etc. However for your own agenda you dont want to believe that. You are however yet again willing to throw false accusations around but not strong enough to admit your errors.
Still msybe it should be 17000001 now

Neville's Breakfast said:

It's not relevant to this debate but I just want to challenge your assumption that those who have not mastered basic reading, writing and maths are thick. There has been an enormous amount of research into different learning styles and mismatches between intellect and the skills you mention. The human brain is extremely complex and people have different strengths. I have academic qualifications but consider myself lucky that society measures academic success in a way that suits my brain. There are many people of equal or greater intellect who simply cannot conform to society's norms and measurements.
Perhaps if this were better understood then talent would not be wasted when children cannot concentrate or sit exams successfully. Also, perhaps there would be less insulting references made towards them and their views from other people who perhaps confuse their own success with their intellect.

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What a fabulously measured and thoughtful post. Probably wasted on here sadly.

The Merry Prankster said:

What a fabulously measured and thoughtful post. Probably wasted on here sadly.

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It wasn't wasted on me. I had the pleasure of reading it just before your excellent comment.

Neville's Breakfast said:

Hannan is entitled to his opinion and his ideas are as valid as yours or mine.
You seem to be fighting a rear guard action to defend the position of June 2016 and you are
interpreting everything that happens in those terms. I think the position has moved on so let's wait and
see. One example of this is the position of Merkel, another Trump's victory and another is that Theresa May who was not involved in the Leave campaign now calls the shots. Her challenge is to find a compromise deal which will appeal both to our European neighbors and the vast majority of the population who want to work together and leave behind the rather tired arguments of anti immigration and EU fanaticism. You and others on here are of course able to continue your absolutist squabbling from the fringes while the rest of us move on.
I am always amused when told I am wrong when giving my opinion. That level of defensiveness usually means a nerve has been hit...

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It is not a matter of opinion, the fact is that what was meant by Dan Hannan when he says access to the single market is the same terms of trading in the EU that we currently enjoy, akin to non member states such as Norway, Iceland and Switzerland, which is why he mentions those countries and not any from the rest of the world. But what you said was this "Access to the single market doesn't mean anything of the sort. You are describing membership. The rest of the world has access to the single market in assorted (negotiated) terms without accepting the conditionsyou describe.
I also do not accept that access means the free movement of people."

So I will say it again, however much it amuses you for me to say it, you are wrong.

Neville's Breakfast said:

It's not relevant to this debate but I just want to challenge your assumption that those who have not mastered basic reading, writing and maths are thick. There has been an enormous amount of research into different learning styles and mismatches between intellect and the skills you mention. The human brain is extremely complex and people have different strengths. I have academic qualifications but consider myself lucky that society measures academic success in a way that suits my brain. There are many people of equal or greater intellect who simply cannot conform to society's norms and measurements.
Perhaps if this were better understood then talent would not be wasted when children cannot concentrate or sit exams successfully. Also, perhaps there would be less insulting references made towards them and their views from other people who perhaps confuse their own success with their intellect.

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I would not surprise me in the least to find that a great many of those unable to read or write, are of equal or greater intellect than yourself.

Sixty Conservative MPs back call to leave single market

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38037119

As they should. After all most of the major players on all sides said this would be the outcome so people would have known what they were voting for.

Baldseagull said:

It is not a matter of opinion, the fact is that what was meant by Dan Hannan when he says access to the single market is the same terms of trading in the EU that we currently enjoy, akin to non member states such as Norway, Iceland and Switzerland, which is why he mentions those countries and not any from the rest of the world. But what you said was this "Access to the single market doesn't mean anything of the sort. You are describing membership. The rest of the world has access to the single market in assorted (negotiated) terms without accepting the conditionsyou describe.
I also do not accept that access means the free movement of people."

So I will say it again, however much it amuses you for me to say it, you are wrong.

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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You seem a little bogged down with everything but you are by no means the only one.

JC Footy Genius said:

Sixty Conservative MPs back call to leave single market

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38037119

As they should. After all most of the major players on all sides said this would be the outcome so people would have known what they were voting for.

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It was never any more of the outcome people were voting for than the NHS being £350 million a week better off.

You may not like that, but that is the case.

Neville's Breakfast said:

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You seem a little bogged down with everything but you are by no means the only one.

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I think you get the point, you just don't want to admit it. Unless you are one of the thick ones.

pb21 said:

It was never any more of the outcome people were voting for than the NHS being £350 million a week better off.

You may not like that, but that is the case.

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As the leave side have been continually ridiculed for believing voting Brexit = a possible £350 million a week for the NHS why should we suddenly discount the clearly expressed opinion of the serving Prime Minister and Chancellor?

pb21 said:

It was never any more of the outcome people were voting for than the NHS being £350 million a week better off.

You may not like that, but that is the case.

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That's not what the BBC's political editor thought just before the vote:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/36500747

Brexit - and stay in the single market? Here's how

Kamal AhmedEconomics editor

10 June 2016

*

Business

[https://cdn]

Free movement of people is a fundamental principle of the European Union single market.

It is the right of any EU citizen to seek work in any other country in the EU.

And it is non-negotiable.

If you want to be in the single market - and, as most economic authorities' judge, therefore gain economically - then you have to allow EU citizens to work in the UK.

If Britain votes to leave the EU on June 23, many believe that would not only end free movement of people (a central tenet of the Leave campaign's offer to voters) but also end the UK's membership of the single market.

Today, Wolfgang Schaeuble, the German finance minister, appeared to say as much - a vote for Brexit is also a vote for leaving the single market, and all its advantages.

"If the majority in Britain opts for Brexit, that would be a decision against the single market," Mr Schaeuble told Der Spiegel.

"In is in. Out is out. One has to respect the sovereignty of the British people."

For some business leaders sympathetic to Brexit - and close to the Prime Minister - this is a problem.

They agree that leaving the single market could result in significant economic headwinds.

But, they tell me, there is a solution - the UK remaining in the single market but without the need for full free movement as presently constituted.

And they are in discussions with German businesses to make the case for a different structure if the vote goes their way.

It would work like this:

Britain votes to leave the EU.

Negotiations begin on Britain's new relationship with the EU.

The UK offers to maintain at least part of its contribution to the EU budget - at present about £8.5bn a year including rebates and EU support for British agriculture and research.

In return, Britain withdraws from the free movement of people requirements but allows for a lesser "free movement of labour" which allows for workers from the EU to come to the UK with a firm job offer.

One senior City figure I spoke to who is pro-Brexit said that German businesses were "petrified" of the UK leaving the single market.

He argued that "Mittelstand" firms - the medium sized companies that are the engine room of the German economy - would demand that political leaders do a deal to allow goods unfettered access to the UK.

And vice versa.

Other EU countries are also concerned about the economic effect on their domestic economy if the UK leaves, and, those sympathetic to Brexit believe, politicians would be under similar business pressure to "do a free trade deal".

A little noticed study in the Netherlands by the country's*Bureau for Economic Analysis*said this: "By 2030, the costs for the Netherlands [of Brexit] could run up to 1.2% of GDP, or 10 billion euros.

"And, if we also assume innovation is trade‐induced as recent examples in the literature have shown, then the Brexit‐related costs of 10 billion euros could increase by another 65%."

The report suggests that if the UK does vote to leave there would need to be some form of free trade agreement, although not with all the advantages of the present single market.

"It would not be able to completely restore the current full access to the internal market," the report says.

"[But] should the EU and the UK reach a free trade agreement, the economic consequences of a Brexit for the Netherlands would be reduced by 20% [in the] absence of trade tariffs for goods traded between the EU and the UK."

The Remain campaign is dismissive of the chances of Britain leaving the EU but staying, at least partially, in the single market.

But business leaders that back Brexit are not so sure.

The economic needs of businesses in the rest of the EU may force the hand of political leaders.

JC Footy Genius said:

As the leave side have been continually ridiculed for believing voting Brexit = a possible £350 million a week for the NHS why should we suddenly discount the clearly expressed opinion of the serving Prime Minister and Chancellor?

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As you say it was their opinion, given on the basis of presenting Brexit in a bad light.

JC Footy Genius said:

As the leave side have been continually ridiculed for believing voting Brexit = a possible £350 million a week for the NHS why should we suddenly discount the clearly expressed opinion of the serving Prime Minister and Chancellor?

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Well at the time, I think many of you called it project fear, and the negative outcome the PM and Chancellor were describing, was not what would happen. If you want the full "hard Brexit" though, as it has come to be known, we get the project fear economy.