[Politics] Brexit

JC Footy Genius · Aug 2, 2016

5ways said:
It will never happen because we never took the EU seriously, elected a bunch of very lazy, anti-intellectual, regressive UKIP MEPs to sit there and take the piss as people around them worked hard on their behalf. Everything Baldseagulll described was either already true or possible with a little effort and political will.There are economic, political, and environmental challenges where we desperately need the same outcome and have identical interests. Yet we will be relegated to cheering from the sidelines while the big boys take the decisions.

In what way didn't we take the EU seriously? Or do you mean fully signing up to ever closer union, the Euro etc etc which I think deep down you would have supported at the time as would many other pro remainers. The people elected our MEP's so UKIP served as a useful voice to represent their disillusionment with the EU. That unfortunate democracy thing, rather inconvenient .. right. More delusional or Utopian than true but never mind. Yes we have common interests just like we do with numerous Allies around the world and we can act in our national interest and support or sign up to action/agreements without the continual ceding of sovereignty to a failing political project. NATO,UN WTO, G8,G20 should give us ample opportunity to agree common positions.

JC Footy Genius · Aug 2, 2016

The Clamp said:
The 2nd bloke looks as if he's wearing a really cheap, foam muscle suit. Extraordinary. Shouty man was disturbing, that poor woman next to him.
But Dave Lammy MP is absolutely spot on. He is not a bad loser, he's talking sense. A decision of this magnitude should have required a 2/3rds majority and all 3 nations should have had to have been in majority agreement. He's right.
Super to see people take to the streets to voice those disapproval at the way the vote went. That the vote ever took place. Gives me hope to see our continental neighbours dancing on the streets of England's capital...long may they do so.

Not sure what's more amusing the never heard before statement ... Dave Lammy MP is absolutely spot on or forgetting about Northern Ireland :wink:

The Clamp · Aug 2, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Not sure what's more amusing the never heard before statement ... Dave Lammy MP is absolutely spot on or forgetting about Northern Ireland

I have to say I hold my hands up for typing three not four but what makes you so certain in was NI that I missed off? It Is up to you to decide which you find funniest.

Lincoln Imp · Aug 2, 2016

Two Professors said:
So he didn't say he thought the vote needed a 2/3's majority-I must have mis-read it.Not

Yes, you did misread it. Lammy was talking about how he thought the referendum rules should have been established in the first place. You then claimed that he, and others, wanted to change the rules "after" (your word) the results had come in. Huge difference.

Lincoln Imp · Aug 2, 2016

Two Professors said:
Been on Wiki again and read a little bit-now you're an expert on Irish history.So the Ulster Defence Regiment never existed?Try reading more than one paragraph,you might broaden your mind a bit.

You don't have to look anything up. The clue is in our country's name. Which isn't "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ulster".

Baldseagull · Aug 2, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
In what way didn't we take the EU seriously? Or do you mean fully signing up to ever closer union, the Euro etc etc which I think deep down you would have supported at the time as would many other pro remainers. The people elected our MEP's so UKIP served as a useful voice to represent their disillusionment with the EU. That unfortunate democracy thing, rather inconvenient .. right. More delusional or Utopian than true but never mind. Yes we have common interests just like we do with numerous Allies around the world and we can act in our national interest and support or sign up to action/agreements without the continual ceding of sovereignty to a failing political project. NATO,UN WTO, G8,G20 should give us ample opportunity to agree common positions.

Personally, closer political Union is desirable, but I acknowledge not many are up for that.

Here, at UK elections, I get to vote for one candidate, in one constituency and often I and many others end up reluctantly voting, not for the candidate I want, but the candidate most likely to be able to beat the one I really don't want.
In the EU, I vote for the party most aligned with my views and unless next to no one agrees with me, I at least end up with some representation that I can stand behind in the European Parliament.

Here, we have an elected house of Commons, an unelected house of Lords, that can and does return legislation to the Commons for amendment, is deliberately delayed to fall into a new Parliament, or flatly rejected, and a Monarch sitting on top, who despite rarely ever flexing her muscles, holds quite considerable power, and cannot be sued.
In the EU, we have an elected Parliament, a Council made up of the elected leaders of the member states, and a commission whose leader is appointed by the Council.
At this point the EU looks more democratic, however, the Council and Parliament can only debate and vote upon the issues and proposals set by the unelected Commission, and I would say that this slips some of the democracy away.
I think you are overstating the greater level of democracy in the UK, it really is not much better, and debatabley worse.

As for other allies, with the US, we have an unequal relationship, in their favour. With others, it is more in our favour, we do not have as much equality of give and take with any non EU ally.

The organisations you mention all have laudible but very narrow aims, all relating to how nations deal with one another at some level, the EU is much more concerned with the treatment of and effects on the 500 Million citizens, it aims to not be driven by any selfish or short term individual national interests but by all member nations longer term interests. This is one of the reasons it has the less than fully democratic structure that it does.

Two Professors · Aug 2, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
You don't have to look anything up. The clue is in our country's name. Which isn't "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ulster".

That's just modern PC usage,like the Royal Ulster Constabulary is now the Police Service of Northern Ireland.I don't notice the Northern Ireland Unionist Party having much of a profile-seems to still be the Ulster Unionist Party.Try looking up Ulster Freedom Fighters,Ulster Volunteer Force,Red Hand of Ulster etc-I think you will find that Ulster,a name that goes back 1000 years,is still common usage among people from Ulster.

Two Professors · Aug 2, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
Yes, you did misread it. Lammy was talking about how he thought the referendum rules should have been established in the first place. You then claimed that he, and others, wanted to change the rules "after" (your word) the results had come in. Huge difference.

If you think that's a huge difference,you're a real nit-picker.And if he didn't want to change the rules,then why bother mentioning or whining about it?

Lincoln Imp · Aug 2, 2016

studio150 said:
Gibraltar?

British overseas territory, like the Falklands.

Two Professors · Aug 2, 2016

Baldseagull said:
I suspect this is due to there already being one in the room, wherever he goes.

Then please will you stop following me,you strange stalker!

Lincoln Imp · Aug 2, 2016

Two Professors said:
That's just modern PC usage,like the Royal Ulster Constabulary is now the Police Service of Northern Ireland.I don't notice the Northern Ireland Unionist Party having much of a profile-seems to still be the Ulster Unionist Party.Try looking up Ulster Freedom Fighters,Ulster Volunteer Force,Red Hand of Ulster etc-I think you will find that Ulster,a name that goes back 1000 years,is still common usage among people from Ulster.

I am sorry but this is a non-sequitur. There are loads of organisations with "Wessex" in the name but that doesn't mean that Wessex is the correct and current name for a large chunk of southern England. Ulster is a larger part of Ireland than the political entity known as "Northern Ireland".

SUA Seagull · Aug 2, 2016

Baldseagull said:
The organisations you mention all have laudible but very narrow aims, all relating to how nations deal with one another at some level, the EU is much more concerned with the treatment of and effects on the 500 Million citizens, it aims to not be driven by any selfish or short term individual national interests but by all member nations longer term interests. This is one of the reasons it has the less than fully democratic structure that it does.

Whilst that may be the theory, I’m not sure that’s the case in practice. Witness the youth unemployment rates in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal and the potentially bleak future the youth in those countries currently appear to be facing.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

A number of my Southern European friends and business contacts are deeply depressed about the EU, which they see as being far more concerned about looking after large corporate interests rather than its citizens’ welfare in the drive to forge closer EU political union and trade links. They see their countries as slipping into long term serfdom to their stronger Northern European partners as their youth population is forced to seek employment elsewhere (to the detriment of their own domestic growth) and they are, by and large, becoming increasingly sceptical of the EU project.

pastafarian · Aug 2, 2016

Soulman said:
Around 3:40 is my favourite....

if you are going to Brexit rant.......go all in.
not safe for work......loads of swearing.

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 2, 2016

SUA Seagull said:
A number of my Southern European friends and business contacts are deeply depressed about the EU,

Southern Europe is looking quite nice from where I'm currently seated. That said, my lunch and red wine were a little on the heavy side* so I'm going to return to the beach to sleep it off. I think my afternoon is over.

* as nice and well cooked and presented as it was, slow cooked pork belly with squid on a bed of black beans wasn't the wisest choice for 30 plus degrees.

nicko31 · Aug 2, 2016

pastafarian said:
if you are going to Brexit rant.......go all in.
not safe for work......loads of swearing.

Palace for sure.....

Baldseagull · Aug 2, 2016

SUA Seagull said:
Whilst that may be the theory, I’m not sure that’s the case in practice. Witness the youth unemployment rates in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal and the potentially bleak future the youth in those countries currently appear to be facing.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

A number of my Southern European friends and business contacts are deeply depressed about the EU, which they see as being far more concerned about looking after large corporate interests rather than its citizens’ welfare in the drive to forge closer EU political union and trade links. They see their countries as slipping into long term serfdom to their stronger Northern European partners as their youth population is forced to seek employment elsewhere (to the detriment of their own domestic growth) and they are, by and large, becoming increasingly sceptical of the EU project.

Yes, there are definitely problems that need fixing, but Brexit only adds to them. I am not claiming the EU is without issue, but you could argue that the North of England has been left to diminish by London centric policy in the UK, no one thinks the answer is to split the North of England off though.
Spain and Portugal are on the way up, unemployment is falling although still high, Italy are in real trouble though, and the Euro and low inflation is not helping them, but it is decades old welfare commitments and bad lending by its banks that are most to blame.
Greece's problems can be laid more at the door of the EU, mostly by dint of not protecting them from themselves by giving them the Euro without them meeting almost any of the standards that were set.

warmleyseagull · Aug 2, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
I am sorry but this is a non-sequitur. There are loads of organisations with "Wessex" in the name but that doesn't mean that Wessex is the correct and current name for a large chunk of southern England. Ulster is a larger part of Ireland than the political entity known as "Northern Ireland".

This. There is a big gap between the North and South of Europe, caused at least partly by Euro. Meant Germany didn't have to revalue Mark and could push out exports. Despite its problems, Greece has one of the highest per capita defence spending, largely predicated on paying out contractual agreements for German defence equipment like submarines.

Germany has done extraordinarily well out of Euro, and suspect that Mrs M realises this and is partly why she is rather more sympathetic to the plight of Southern Europe than many of her fellow citizens. Consequently the Afd has come about as some Germans become impatient with the situation (not helped by madmen with shooters) and will certainly take seats in Bundestag next year, making coalition more difficult.

Meanwhile Italy may vote against the constitutional reforms that Renzi is pushing in an Autumn referendum. He will resign if so, and Five Star Movement gets some action. They are against Euro and want a referendum on staying in it. The timing is auspicious due to the perilous situation of Italian banks, and whether Italy will in effect be allowed to print Euros to save the banks' small investors. Germany is of course against this. There is a fudge (as always with EU) but the situation is another nail in Euro coffin. The Euro cannot last indefinitely without fiscal Union, and that is never going to happen.

There are further possibilities of euro disruption in Czech Republic, Hungary and Netherlands in next few months, and it is not out of question that Le Pen will win; she will almost certainly get quite a few seats in French Parliament even if the rest gang up on her for President. That would be game over for EU.

The bugger is that we could have sat on the sidelines and watched all this happen, with a very good chance that what we want in terms of less legislation but more free trade might have happened anyway over next 4-5 years, instead of which we have rather thrown ourselves into the unknown.

wellquickwoody · Aug 3, 2016

Biggest drop in business activity in the service sector EVER recorded in July. Interest rates expected to be halved tomorrow.

Carry on everybody and well done!

It will be alright, won't it?

nicko31 · Aug 3, 2016

wellquickwoody said:
Biggest drop in business activity in the service sector EVER recorded in July. Interest rates expected to be halved tomorrow.

Carry on everybody and well done!

It will be alright, won't it?

Just wait until the government goes on a borrowing binge to plug the hole in the public finances.

portslade seagull · Aug 3, 2016

nicko31 said:
Just wait until the government goes on a borrowing binge to plug the hole in the public finances.

What the hole they have been trying to plug since the banking crisis. Also they think there is another banking crisis is looming

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