[Politics] Brexit

ManOfSussex said:

Yes, the democratic will of the majority is being dangerously ignored with today's announcement - There'll be rioting of the streets of Chipping Camden.

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Point of order! There aren't millions of people in Chipping Camden to riot (millionaires, maybe, but not millions of people)!

Herr Tubthumper said:

Universities pushing pro-EU agenda? I don’t recall politics ever entering my maths degree.

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The elephant in the room in his post is that universities are pro EU because being members makes sense and universities are made up mainly of learned individuals.

Plus a lot of their research funding comes from the EU.

CHAPPERS said:

The elephant in the room in his post is that universities are pro EU because being members makes sense and universities are made up mainly of learned individuals.

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Sorry, forgot that all intelligent people are remainers! Silly of me!

CHAPPERS said:

Plus a lot of their research funding comes from the EU.

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Now, after the nonsense of the first part of your post, that does make sense. They want to stay in the EU for the money. Well, well, well - who'd have thought it! You also forgot to mention that they get a lot more money, too, from overseas students, the more the merrier, coming here to learn and paying them massive fees. Universities not wanting to get off the gravy train? - now there's an elephant in the room, if you want one!

ManOfSussex said:

I know they're not all zero hour contracts and I don't need to Google it - 4 years ago when I last claimed JSA, I can't recall seeing one zero hours contract job amongst all the endless, unfilled minimum wage/low paid jobs on offer. Identical story now apparently, as a mate of mine's girlfriend was out of work during the autumn for a time and had the joys of a Job Centre Plus to attend, though the benefits sanction regime makes the whole JSP experience even worse now than when I was last there too.

Of course you're not blaming immigrants - spiralling rents and increasing numbers of private landlords switching from 'Sorry no Housing Benefits/DSS' to 'Sorry No Universal Credit' when looking for tenants can't be blamed on them.

When do you think wages will rise as unskilled immigration is curbed - anytime soon?

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As you asked a question I assumed you didn't know the answer. I agree it's very rare to see any zero hours contract jobs although if we were to believe Comrade Corbyn and many of his devoted followers this country is awash with them and record employment should be taken for granted. You would think if it was really true that there are endless unfulfilled minimum/living wage jobs employers would need to increase the pay to get them filled. Benefits sanctions as in a penalty if you refuse to take one of those many, many available jobs you say exist?

Spiralling rents/ unscrupulous landlords have nothing to do with/aren't taking advantage of supply and demand?

*official Labour Force Survey data shows that over the last ten years 90% of the additional households created in England were headed by a person born outside the UK. That is 1.1 million additional homes out of 1.2 million between 2005 and 2015. In London in the last ten years, all of the additional households have been headed up by someone born overseas.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/housing

The foreign-born population is almost three times as likely to be in the private rental sector (41% were in this sector in the second quarter of 2017), compared to the UK-born (15%)

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox....nd-housing-in-the-uk-experiences-and-impacts/

To the topic you didn't mention it's also apparently illegal to deport EU rough sleepers thanks to EU law.

When do you think wages will rise/housing become more available, less pressure on school places, less demand on the NHS, we will see fewer rough sleepers if it isn't?

Lincoln Imp said:

Fox hunting is interesting. Millions of people voted for it to be the subject of a free vote in Parliament in 2015 (according to the NSC Brexiteers' theory that states that people support every item in the manifesto of the party they vote for) and yet the government is now abandoning the policy BEFORE IT HAS BEEN ENACTED. Smelly and undemocratic loons the lot of them!

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Ah the usual disingenuous complete misrepresentation/strawman line so favoured by undemocratic loons who can't successfully argue their case. Feel free to quote any post where anyone has said that people support every item in a manifesto .....

GT49er said:

Sorry, forgot that all intelligent people are remainers! Silly of me!


Now, after the nonsense of the first part of your post, that does make sense. They want to stay in the EU for the money. Well, well, well - who'd have thought it! You also forgot to mention that they get a lot more money, too, from overseas students, the more the merrier, coming here to learn and paying them massive fees. Universities not wanting to get off the gravy train? - now there's an elephant in the room, if you want one!

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So, who will replace British universities EU research funding after Brexit?

Herr Tubthumper said:

So, who will replace British universities EU research funding after Brexit?

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The £350m per week (gross not net but let’s not confuse people) is tagged to the NHS so it’s a gaping hole presumably.

GT49er said:

I don't see how post Brexit Britain is likely to be more class driven. For years the natural progression, both legal and in terms of social mores and customs has moved steadily away from class. Think of the one time universal hierarchies that have broken down - men over women? Now sexual equality. Straights over gays? No, now both the law and social mores have moved to equal rights for homosexual people. I'm not saying either of these processes are complete, but they've moved a hell of a long way in the last 50 years - and I don't see being in or out of the EU making any difference.
The reinforcement of class through the use of titles has virtually disappeared - I can't remember the last time I was addressed as 'Mr.' by a professional or tradesperson - it's always egalitarian Christian names - sorry, first names - now. And as for Labour and Conservative - are the PLP anything like working class these days? Come to think of it, do many of the Tory MPs look like a bunch of toffs?
This breakdown of a class system is an organic process - driven by societal changes. Do you see any way that this will change after Brexit? I can't.
The wealth gap (definitely not to be confused with class), though - that is still well and truly with us. I don't think Brexit will cure it - not quickly, anyway - but neither would remaining. After all, the gap between the rich and the poor in this country has risen out of control on the EU's watch.

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Considerably more so than any other partys M.P.s, yes.

The gap between rich and poor has risen on the Torys watch. The EU, does not have control enough to make the changes for the UK. I am pleased to find that you are someone who believes in greater equality. What I find difficult though is to sit that belief in greater equality, with the desire to set the UK apart from the other EU nations.
The aim of the main Brexiteers seems to me to be, to not play by the same rules as the rest of the EU, in order to gain an advantage, i.e. be more competitive.
More competitive means lower cost of operating a business, when I think of the ways this is achieved, I think lower cost of employment, lower corporation tax, lower regulation. I would love to hear how any of these measures will close the gap between the lowest paid workers and the highest earners.

Baldseagull said:

Considerably more so than any other partys M.P.s, yes.

The gap between rich and poor has risen on the Torys watch. The EU, does not have control enough to make the changes for the UK. I am pleased to find that you are someone who believes in greater equality. What I find difficult though is to sit that belief in greater equality, with the desire to set the UK apart from the other EU nations.
The aim of the main Brexiteers seems to me to be, to not play by the same rules as the rest of the EU, in order to gain an advantage, i.e. be more competitive.
More competitive means lower cost of operating a business, when I think of the ways this is achieved, I think lower cost of employment, lower corporation tax, lower regulation. I would love to hear how any of these measures will close the gap between the lowest paid workers and the highest earners.

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Nail, head. Bizarre that those on the left don’t get it. The EU has done much for workers rights, there will be less to stop the Toffs. That’s why they want it.

Poor old rudderless Deutschland still no government in place, three months after the elections .... we need them to get their act together so the Eu can do as their told/Brexit talks can progress. Tick tock

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...seeks-to-revive-grand-coalition-idUSKBN1EV0RB

JC Footy Genius said:

Poor old rudderless Deutschland still no government in place, three months after the elections .... we need them to get their act together so the Eu can do as their told/Brexit talks can progress. Tick tock

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...seeks-to-revive-grand-coalition-idUSKBN1EV0RB

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I’d just like to know definitely what our governments ask of the EU for an ongoing relationship. Complete shambles that it’s still not clear. It our best brains are on it, Davis doing a cough cough great job

Baldseagull said:

Considerably more so than any other partys M.P.s, yes.

The gap between rich and poor has risen on the Torys watch. The EU, does not have control enough to make the changes for the UK. I am pleased to find that you are someone who believes in greater equality. What I find difficult though is to sit that belief in greater equality, with the desire to set the UK apart from the other EU nations.
The aim of the main Brexiteers seems to me to be, to not play by the same rules as the rest of the EU, in order to gain an advantage, i.e. be more competitive.
More competitive means lower cost of operating a business, when I think of the ways this is achieved, I think lower cost of employment, lower corporation tax, lower regulation. I would love to hear how any of these measures will close the gap between the lowest paid workers and the highest earners.

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How's the gap between the rich and poor going in Greece, or between the Greeks and the richer EU nations? The poor Greeks penalised for ignoring EU rules with crushing austerity while the rich Germans/French get away scott free ....

http://www.spiegel.de/international...euro-zone-ignored-its-own-rules-a-790333.html

Hampster Gull said:

I’d just like to know definitely what our governments ask of the EU for an ongoing relationship. Complete shambles that it’s still not clear. It our best brains are on it, Davis doing a cough cough great job

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Just imagine the level of hysterical bedwetting by the usual suspects if our Government had failed to form a governing coalition three months after an election!

GT49er said:

Sorry, forgot that all intelligent people are remainers! Silly of me!


Now, after the nonsense of the first part of your post, that does make sense. They want to stay in the EU for the money. Well, well, well - who'd have thought it! You also forgot to mention that they get a lot more money, too, from overseas students, the more the merrier, coming here to learn and paying them massive fees. Universities not wanting to get off the gravy train? - now there's an elephant in the room, if you want one!

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Horizon 2020 provides the funding which enables UK universities to conduct research in participation with centres of excellence across Europe. Much of the output of this research then leads to the creation of spin out companies based on cutting edge technologies which enable the UK to maintain its reputation in areas like tech, bioscience etc whilst creating high value jobs. Hardly a gravy train. Without our involvement H2020 will continue, the benefits will just all go somewhere else.

JC Footy Genius said:

As you asked a question I assumed you didn't know the answer. I agree it's very rare to see any zero hours contract jobs although if we were to believe Comrade Corbyn and many of his devoted followers this country is awash with them and record employment should be taken for granted. You would think if it was really true that there are endless unfulfilled minimum/living wage jobs employers would need to increase the pay to get them filled. Benefits sanctions as in a penalty if you refuse to take one of those many, many available jobs you say exist?

Spiralling rents/ unscrupulous landlords have nothing to do with/aren't taking advantage of supply and demand?

*official Labour Force Survey data shows that over the last ten years 90% of the additional households created in England were headed by a person born outside the UK. That is 1.1 million additional homes out of 1.2 million between 2005 and 2015. In London in the last ten years, all of the additional households have been headed up by someone born overseas.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/housing

The foreign-born population is almost three times as likely to be in the private rental sector (41% were in this sector in the second quarter of 2017), compared to the UK-born (15%)

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox....nd-housing-in-the-uk-experiences-and-impacts/

To the topic you didn't mention it's also apparently illegal to deport EU rough sleepers thanks to EU law.

When do you think wages will rise/housing become more available, less pressure on school places, less demand on the NHS, we will see fewer rough sleepers if it isn't?

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Sorry, I'm not talking about immigrants with a rabid, right-winger like you. Talk to a like-minded leave voting friend such as PpF instead.

You can be subject to a benefit sanction if you haven't logged on your Universal Job-match account on a given day for example or applied for a sufficient number of jobs as per your job seekers 'agreement'- big brother watches everything now and they'll hit the most vulnerable for the most spurious of reasons to triumphantly hail how the number of benefit claimants is going down - the wonder of Duncan-Smithism. They're also doing this with capability assessments for PIP and ESA, but that's another discussion entirely. Someone with a mental health issue for example who has their ESA or PIP stopped due to being 'fit for work' is at real risk of falling down the fast track to being on the street, as many already are.

Still, we're all in it together.

ManOfSussex said:

Sorry, I'm not talking about immigrants with a rabid, right-winger like you. Talk to a like-minded leave voting friend such as PpF instead.

You can be subject to a benefit sanction if you haven't logged on your Universal Job-match account on a given day for example or applied for a sufficient number of jobs as per your job seekers 'agreement'- big brother watches everything now and they'll hit the most vulnerable for the most spurious of reasons to triumphantly hail how the number of benefit claimants is going down - the wonder of Duncan-Smithism. They're also doing this with capability assessments for PIP and ESA, but that's another discussion entirely. Someone with a mental health issue for example who has their ESA or PIP stopped due to being 'fit for work' is at real risk of falling down the fast track to being on the street, as many already are.

Still, we're all in it together.

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Stereotyping so much easier than dealing with hard facts/the truth ... bless.

Not in my experience. Any verifiable evidence that in the real world anyone has ever been sanctioned for only not logging on to a Universal job match account .. not applying for jobs you are capable of doing rather than relying on state handouts is OK then .. the wonder of Corbynism, world owes me a living/victimhood.

I am sure there are some cases of overbearing/unfair thresholds re benefits but to suggest this is why we have record employment, low levels of unemployment is nonsense.

The liars telling you we were 'all in it together' told you to vote Remain .... well done for doing as you were told.

JC Footy Genius said:

Stereotyping so much easier than dealing with hard facts/the truth ... bless.

Not in my experience. Any verifiable evidence that in the real world anyone has ever been sanctioned for only not logging on to a Universal job match account .. not applying for jobs you are capable of doing rather than relying on state handouts is OK then .. the wonder of Corbynism, world owes me a living/victimhood.

I am sure there are some cases of overbearing/unfair thresholds re benefits but to suggest this is why we have record employment, low levels of unemployment is nonsense.

The liars telling you we were 'all in it together' told you to vote Remain .... well done for doing as you were told.

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I wasn't suggesting for a moment that benefit sanctions are the reason for record employment. I do know people who have been sanctioned on their JSA claim for the reasons I gave, hence why I gave them. Coming from Hastings and living in the real world rather than Middle Earth I know a fair few people who claim all manner of in-work and out of work benefits, or did in some cases until UC roll-out. I get the distinct impression you've never been inside a Job Centre Plus, but no need for you to clarify that as I know you don't like anecdotal stories as they get in the way of cutting and pasting articles from The Guido Fawkes blog site.

It is strange though - in my hometown of Hastings, rough sleeping on any given night is up to around 50 from 12 and in 2016 alone, 1,100 people moved to Hastings from London, putting additional strain on the things you mentioned in an earlier post when blaming immigrants, street drinking seems to be back at levels I haven't seen since the early 1990's and begging at a level I've never seen it at - Strange how despite this record employment these things coincide with Universal Credit roll-out and the benefits cap being implemented. I remember the days of entire families from London living in bed and breakfasts in Hastings and all the problems that caused. Looks like we're going back there........................

Still, blue passports though because we've got our country back.

cheshunt seagull said:

Horizon 2020 provides the funding which enables UK universities to conduct research in participation with centres of excellence across Europe. Much of the output of this research then leads to the creation of spin out companies based on cutting edge technologies which enable the UK to maintain its reputation in areas like tech, bioscience etc whilst creating high value jobs. Hardly a gravy train. Without our involvement H2020 will continue, the benefits will just all go somewhere else.

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Is the funding only allowed to come exclusively from the EU or can it arrive from another source? Will collaboration cease when we leave and does the EU have the same encouragement for small business's as we have here in the UK? I'm no expert on this subject however your post appears to point to there being only one way to do this.

cheshunt seagull said:

Horizon 2020 provides the funding which enables UK universities to conduct research in participation with centres of excellence across Europe. Much of the output of this research then leads to the creation of spin out companies based on cutting edge technologies which enable the UK to maintain its reputation in areas like tech, bioscience etc whilst creating high value jobs. Hardly a gravy train. Without our involvement H2020 will continue, the benefits will just all go somewhere else.

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There does seem to be some confusion amongst some remainers that leaving the EU automatically removes us from involvement in Horizon2020 and funding.

Our involvement in Horizon2020 will continue though, this was negotiated and confirmed in the EU/UK joint statement a few weeks ago.

“Following withdrawal from the union, the UK will continue to participate in the union programmes…until their closure,”
“Entities located in the UK will be entitled to participate in such programmes.”
“Accordingly, the eligibility to apply to participate in union programmes and union funding for UK participants and projects will be unaffected by the UK’s withdrawal from the union for the entire lifetime of such projects.”

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...rderly_withdrawal_from_the_European_Union.pdf

Tim Bradshaw, the chief executive of the Russell Group Universities , said “We also welcome that people with settled status will be able to spend up to five consecutive years outside the UK without losing this status. This will help ensure future academic collaboration with international partners is not undermined. We would encourage the government to put the terms of the agreement on citizens’ rights into UK law as soon as possible.”
Dr Bradshaw said that the confirmation of the UK’s continuing participation in Horizon 2020 was “another big step forwards”

https://www.timeshighereducation.co...rances-post-brexit-residency-and-horizon-2020



Participation from outside the European Union in Horizon2020 is explicitly encouraged.
Any applicant based in a country which is associated to Horizon 2020 is automatically eligible for funding. Associated countries participate under the same conditions as legal entities from the Member State countries.

Associated countries are;
Iceland
Norway
Albania
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Macedonia
Montenegro
Serbia
Turkey
Israel
Moldova
Switzerland
Faroe Islands
Ukraine
Tunisia
Georgia
Armenia

Additionally, applicants based in any of the countries listed here are automatically eligible for funding under the Horizon 2020 budget:

Afghanistan, Algeria, American Samoa, Angola, Argentina, Armenia, Azerbaijan Bangladesh, Belarus, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Burundi Cambodia, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile, Colombia, Comoros, Congo (Democratic People's Republic), Congo (Republic), Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Cuba Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Ethiopia Fiji Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Ghana, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana Haiti, Honduras Indonesia, Iran, Iraq Jamaica, Jordan Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea (Democratic People's Republic), Kosovo*, Kyrgyz Republic Lao, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Mauritius, Micronesia, Moldova, Mongolia, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar Namibia, Nepal, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria Pakistan, Palau, Palestine, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines Rwanda Samoa, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal, Serbia, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, South Sudan, Sri Lanka, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Syrian Arab Republic Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Timor-Leste, Togo, Tonga, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu Uganda, Uruguay, Uzbekistan Vanuatu, Venezuela, Vietnam Yemen Zambia, Zimbabwe

http://ec.europa.eu/research/partic...rants_manual/hi/3cpart/h2020-hi-3cpart_en.pdf

When Horizon expires in 2020 Framework Programme 9 (FP9) will take over, participation is expected to be along similar lines.It does seem rather inconceivable given the active roll played by so many countries that the UK will not participate in this new venture or will be frozen out as a tiny few have suggested.

JC Footy Genius said:

Ah the usual disingenuous complete misrepresentation/strawman line so favoured by undemocratic loons who can't successfully argue their case. Feel free to quote any post where anyone has said that people support every item in a manifesto .....

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You have. Constantly. Droning on about 80 per cent of people voting for a party that was supporting Brexit in 2017 as if it proved something or other. The mark of a man who can't successfully argue his case is one who can't resist tired old name-calling, time after time after time.