Will Self - Is he right to hate hipsters?

Buzzer · Sep 22, 2014

Wilko said:
Lee. Have a listen to Danny Baker's Desert Island discs or his interview with Richard Herring, both are available on itunes for nowt. Reminded me of the Danny Baker of old, both are brilliant, he has a superb view on life, health and money.

Ah..will do matey. I do Danny Baker a huge disservice then.

Edit - just to add that I do love reading Self in full rant but I struggle to believe that he's that much of a polemicist in real-life. He's paid for these opinions and he's picked a very easy target (see also his views on Jamie Oliver) but I don't think there's much invention with these articles. His talent is that he uses much more prosaic language - something I definitely approve of.

Bold Seagull · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
Oh really? What invention has Will Self? A serious question because as far as I can tell he's a social commentator and author. No more and no less. I know he holds academic seats but there's no invention there, is there?

Tony Parsons was doing the same 30, 40-odd years ago when he wrote for the Telegraph(?) and NME. He had a brilliant collection of his diatribes against society called "Writing from the frontline of popular culture", every bit as acerbic, sarcastic and contradictory as Self's. And I'd add to that Parsons contemporaries at NME: Julie Burchill and Danny Baker. Sadly, all 3 are now irrelevant old farts but back in the day they were a lot edgier than anything Will Self aspires to. There's also the added bonus of genuinely coming from outside the establishment so at least Parsons and Baker's Estuary English has an air of authenticity to it. The broadsheets are full of Will Self-types of all political persuasions. On the right you have Alain De Botton and Rod Liddle. I'm curious - please elaborate on how Self has more invention than Botton or Liddle.

Will Self having a pop at hipsters - Ha! Self is great entertainment and a good novelist but his TV persona is a caricature that he deliberately cultivates in much the same way as Paul Merton does. And he's certainly no Chris Morris.

You're right, he's a good novelist, and Great Apes is a brilliant satire which is not unlike a modern fusion of Kafka and Orwell mixed in together, if not some Huxley as well. In pure writing terms I've found him very inventive and engaging compared to many including Tony Parsons (whose style I just couldn't get into). There aren't many around that can touch Chris Morris, or Stewart Lee for that matter though.

Buzzer · Sep 22, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
You're right, he's a good novelist, and Great Apes is a brilliant satire which is not unlike a modern fusion of Kafka and Orwell mixed in together, if not some Huxley as well. In pure writing terms I've found him very inventive and engaging compared to many including Tony Parsons (whose style I just couldn't get into). There aren't many around that can touch Chris Morris, or Stewart Lee for that matter though.

Yes, much better than Parsons whose novels are cliched fluff. And Self is a much better novelist than just 'good' as I first wrote and that's where his satire is at its best, in my opinion. These articles he writes taking pops at various soft targets - not so good.

daveinprague · Sep 22, 2014

I thought Will Self was a hipster

Seagull58 · Sep 22, 2014

I much prefer Rod Liddle, especially when he's writing about football related topics.

Machiavelli · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
Oh really? What invention has Will Self? A serious question because as far as I can tell he's a social commentator and author. No more and no less. I know he holds academic seats but there's no invention there, is there?

Tony Parsons was doing the same 30, 40-odd years ago when he wrote for the Telegraph(?) and NME. He had a brilliant collection of his diatribes against society called "Writing from the frontline of popular culture", every bit as acerbic, sarcastic and contradictory as Self's. And I'd add to that Parsons contemporaries at NME: Julie Burchill and Danny Baker. Sadly, all 3 are now irrelevant old farts but back in the day they were a lot edgier than anything Will Self aspires to. There's also the added bonus of genuinely coming from outside the establishment so at least Parsons and Baker's Estuary English has an air of authenticity to it. The broadsheets are full of Will Self-types of all political persuasions. On the right you have Alain De Botton and Rod Liddle. I'm curious - please elaborate on how Self has more invention than Botton or Liddle.

Will Self having a pop at hipsters - Ha! Self is great entertainment and a good novelist but his TV persona is a caricature that he deliberately cultivates in much the same way as Paul Merton does. And he's certainly no Chris Morris.

You've asked a few things there, in response to a post indicating that I like Self, along with Morris and Boyle.
Invention might be the wrong term (I typed in haste, and looking at that post, perhaps I meant inventiveness) although isn't that what artists -- considered broadly -- do? They invent, they create. But perhaps you can indicate how you're differentiating between invention and social commentary. As to your comparisons, Liddle is now just a disgrace, although I enjoyed his editorship of the Today programme. De Botton I quite like, but he's more of a philosophical and artistic communicator, and I'm not entirely sure I'd characterise him as of the right, as you do.
Read Self's recent Guardian article on Guttenburg minds, for instance. Or as indicated his Point of View on Orwell.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but can't think of any hack that matches his range -- enlighten us.
And of course he's no Morris, but who is?

Bold Seagull · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
Yes, much better than Parsons whose novels are cliched fluff. And Self is a much better novelist than just 'good' as I first wrote and that's where his satire is at its best, in my opinion. These articles he writes taking pops at various soft targets - not so good.

To be honest, never touched many of his articles even as a big fan of his novels. To my mind he should stop the articles and spend more time getting some proper writing done!

Machiavelli · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
Ah..will do matey. I do Danny Baker a huge disservice then.

Edit - just to add that I do love reading Self in full rant but I struggle to believe that he's that much of a polemicist in real-life. He's paid for these opinions and he's picked a very easy target (see also his views on Jamie Oliver) but I don't think there's much invention with these articles. His talent is that he uses much more prosaic language - something I definitely approve of.

Was also going to say that Danny Baker is charming, not that I've had a great deal of contact with his output.

LargeHadronZugzwang · Sep 22, 2014

What is the next group to vilify? We've had Chavs, Gypsies, immigrants....

Lambasting Orwell for wanting plain English is somewhat lamentable, although do consider some of his novels interesting. Criticising the man who coined the term 'Doublethink', who also revealed how propaganda in the media influences people, is very disappointing. One thing that Orwell as a writer is not, is 'mediocre'. Dystopian Dave ain't 1984 or Animal Farm, but his influence is evident even in Self.

Maybe he's barking up the wrong misanthropic tree or has been smoking too much, as has been suggested. There is an element of truth in what he is saying, that cultural life has been debased. The problem is more fundamental and has much to do with the following philosophy which is taken seriously in some quarters...

http://www.alternet.org/economy/how....xxnroX&rd=1&src=newsletter1020231&t=6&paging

Bold Seagull · Sep 22, 2014

LargeHadronZugzwang said:
Lambasting Orwell for wanting plain English is somewhat lamentable, although do consider some of his novels interesting. Criticising the man who coined the term 'Doublethink', who also revealed how propaganda in the media influences people, is very disappointing. One thing that Orwell as a writer is not, is 'mediocre'. Dystopian Dave ain't 1984 or Animal Farm, but his influence is evident even in Self.

You didn't listen to it before commenting did you…it's worth listening because it's not actually about Orwell's work as such.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04fchmd

brakespear · Sep 22, 2014

Machiavelli said:
Still haven't read it yet.
Did you read my edit?

I did. Unfortunately (for me anyway) Chris Morris' last couple of reinventions haven't really panned out, but that's just opinion

your point stands.

edit: or maybe it doesn't. I mean I agree about Chris Morris being self-inventive but maybe not Will Self.

looney · Sep 22, 2014

On reading this thread I mooched of and read Self's article about Jamie Oliver(not being a fan of the latter).

Its been a long time since i've read such pitiful drivel, I could of done a better hatchet job on Oliver. If your going to do a polemic about someone who does high profile charity work you need to pick targets carefully. Self didn't in his rhetoric laden piece of barf.

LargeHadronZugzwang · Sep 22, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
You didn't listen to it before commenting did you…it's worth listening because it's not actually about Orwell's work as such.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04fchmd

Are you suggesting that when he called Orwell a 'Supreme Mediocrity' he meant something else

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/01/will-self-george-orwell-supreme-mediocrity

nicko31 · Sep 22, 2014

Will is aptly named isn't he just?

Buzzer · Sep 22, 2014

Machiavelli said:
I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but can't think of any hack that matches his range -- enlighten us.

Aside from Botton or Liddle who I've already mentioned? Martin Amis, Mark Steyn...off the top of my head. Love him or hate him, Peter Hitchens is an extremely versatile, prize-winning writer - have a look at what Peter Kellner says about him if you're in any doubt. There's plenty of hacks with as much range as Will Self

I just don't get your hero-worship of him as a journalist when he's reduced to trying to be controversial about hipsters when the internet has been doing a much better job of that for the last 5 years. Not exactly cutting-edge, is it?

Guinness Boy · Sep 22, 2014

lawros left foot said:
I've always thought the only people who read Will Self are hipsters, cos no discerning person would go anywhere near him

Buzzer said:
I rather think that Will Self may have overheard someone describe Self as the sort of writer hipsters aspire to. I think there's a truth in that even if no-one has mentioned it to him: His detachment, the superciliousness, that sneer, the ennui of modern living that Self holds in such contempt (to misquote Stewart Lee - those opinions he gives for money) is a hipster's wet dream. Maybe Self is just trying to put distance between himself and yesterday's fad....

...for money, of course.

Well I read him and I'm a fat, bald, forty something with delusions of intelligence. I've never had a beard or a scooter. Unlike the guy getting off at London Bridge today, bearded, the beginnings of an average tattoo, a pseudo-onesie on and a metal scooter draped ironically over his shoulder. Frankly, what a c***.

But enough about my personal prejudices. Will Self writes how Jackson Pollock paints, how Tony Bourdain cooks, how Paddy McCourt plays football, how Phillip Glass makes music. There's plenty to criticise, and yet, the alternative is so many monosyllabic patsies getting paid f*** all to tell us, reassuringly, what we know already. As the world of journalism moves depressingly towards online click bait after online click bait, I'd at least prefer my paid, professional, storm in a tea cup to be well written. As opposed to, say, Samantha Brick or the legions of dreary "tech" correspondents who pick up a pittance sucking this month's flavour's d**k.

Buzzer · Sep 22, 2014

Guinness Boy said:
As the world of journalism moves depressingly towards online click bait after online click bait, I'd at least prefer my paid, professional, storm in a tea cup to be well written. As opposed to, say, Samantha Brick or the legions of dreary "tech" correspondents who pick up a pittance sucking this month's flavour's d**k.

Ah right. So having a pop at a fat mockney TV chef and a group of ludicrous fops is not playing to the gallery with cheap shots? I'm pretty sure there's tumblr sites that beat Self to that gig years ago.

I think there is a middle ground here that Bold Seagull appears to have taken that Self is a brilliant satirist when writing novels but not so elsewhere. I'd go further and add that I think he's nothing more than a thinking man's Russell Brand when giving his opinions for money in the Fourth Estate. I do love your way of describing his writing though. It's a fantastic way of expressing his style. I feel the same way about Umberto Eco. The man is an unadulterated genius, who half the time I have no idea what he's writing about but I just feel privileged to hang on to his coat-tails as he waxes lyrical about yet another obscure subject that he's an expert in.

Bold Seagull · Sep 22, 2014

LargeHadronZugzwang said:
Are you suggesting that when he called Orwell a 'Supreme Mediocrity' he meant something else

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/01/will-self-george-orwell-supreme-mediocrity

Yes. If you listened and read carefully enough, Self is full of praise of Orwell and has probably read more of his work than you or I have even heard of. He loves his work, but is actually attacking Orwell's insistence that the English language can be expressed in the simplest forms as ideologically wrong. He's set this piece up so that people like yourself jump on it as if he's having a pop at Orwell, but he's actually having a pop at you.

Bold Seagull · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
Ah right. So having a pop at a fat mockney TV chef and a group of ludicrous fops is not playing to the gallery with cheap shots? I'm pretty sure there's tumblr sites that beat Self to that gig years ago.

I think there is a middle ground here that Bold Seagull appears to have taken that Self is a brilliant satirist when writing novels but not so elsewhere. I'd go further and add that I think he's nothing more than a thinking man's Russell Brand when giving his opinions for money in the Fourth Estate. I do love your way of describing his writing though. It's a fantastic way of expressing his style. I feel the same way about Umberto Eco. The man is an unadulterated genius, who half the time I have no idea what he's writing about but I just feel privileged to hang on to his coat-tails as he waxes lyrical about yet another obscure subject that he's an expert in.

There was a classic early Alan Partridge radio show whereby his guest comic (Patrick Marber) does an impression of Alan:

IMPERSONATOR:
... I'm Alan Partridge, I'm the man. I'm Alan Partridge, I tell ya, I'm Alan Partridge.
I'm the man who makes Jimmy Hill look like Umberto Eco. I'm Alan Partridge ...

ALAN:
What's Umberto Eco?

IMPERSONATOR:
What's Umberto Eco?

ALAN:
Translate that now.

IMPERSONATOR:
Translate that now.

ALAN:
What is it?

IMPERSONATOR:
What is it?

ALAN:
What, what is it?

IMPERSONATOR:
What is it?

ALAN:
What is it?

IMPERSONATOR:
What is it?

ALAN:
(slowly and quietly) What is it?

IMPERSONATOR:
(quietly) He's a person.

ALAN:
He's a person?

IMPERSONATOR:
He's a person?

ALAN:
(quietly) What does he do?

IMPERSONATOR:
(quietly) He's a semiologist.

ALAN:
What's a semiologist?

IMPERSONATOR:
What's a semiologist?

ALAN:
What is it?

IMPERSONATOR:
What is it?

repeated until Alan threatens him with violence.

The Island of the Day Before I loved every page. Must treat myself to reading it again. No wonder Eco was so furious at the film version of In The Name of the Rose - anyone would have though Eco is similar to Dan Brown if they only watched the films!! (ha ha, and there is no bigger insult that that). William Weaver also translated a lot of Italo Calvino's work as well as Eco's. Invisible Cities is jaw dropping, and still no doubt top of every architecture school's reading list.

LargeHadronZugzwang · Sep 23, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
Yes. If you listened and read carefully enough, Self is full of praise of Orwell and has probably read more of his work than you or I have even heard of. He loves his work, but is actually attacking Orwell's insistence that the English language can be expressed in the simplest forms as ideologically wrong. He's set this piece up so that people like yourself jump on it as if he's having a pop at Orwell, but he's actually having a pop at you.

Nice of him. How many Public School attendees go on to defend the poor like Orwell? Those Bullingdon lot are very nice chaps, they like waving £20 in front of homeless people, great. Having watched certain celebs on telly make fun of those less fortunate, for the sake of cheap laughs to line their own ego, doesn't really wash am afraid. Fine, go ahead admire him all you want, personally just don't think it ok to mock those less fortunate, including dead authors who can't answer back.

If he wants a sesquipedalian fight I'm quite happy to clonk him over the head with a thesaurus.
:catfight:

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