[Misc] HR Nightmare

How long has this person worked for the company?

NorthstandRacoon said:

As much as I would love to rant about how I think Chelsea could nick Europe from us, I have an issue I want some thoughts/advise on.

One of my employees in my team is playing up. About 3-4 weeks ago, they took sick leave for the umpteenth time, at a moment when we really needed them. My superior agreed it was the final straw and we were going to give them a warning. (their sick record is bad) This warning never happened. Turns out, there was a bit more to it, but I'm just waiting for when it happens again.

Following on, they've recently gone above my head when I ask them to do something and because every time I have asked them to do something over the last 2-3 weeks, that will help them in the long run, they literally react like a child. To the point I had to stop trying to explain the benefits to them because I could feel myself getting f***ing annoyed.

Then, we had a meeting this morning and both agreed a compromise. All was well, so I thought. Fast forward to this afternoon, and I now have HR involved and we are now due a meeting with said employee because they've said that this way of working, and working under me, has put them off even coming into work.

Now, I am very fair and understanding, but they seem like the type that doesn't like authority or being told/asked what to do/how to do things, or taking advice.

I can't remember a time when I suggested/asked them to do a task which meant changing their work slightly (for the better mind), when they actually just went, 'OK, it's not what I'm used to, but I'll give it ago' then give thoughts on how it went and if we needed to change it to how so it works for the team and them. Instead, they go and cry wolf.

I can honestly say, I really do not think I have done anything wrong in my management style, I am the first to admit when I am wrong, (as per my posts on here at times, for example). If there is a problem, I ask to speak to them in a meeting room, so I can solve it with them. And even then, they will say everything fine, and still go to HR/my boss.

Please can anyone suggest how to deal with this?! My 2nd time managing and first full time management of someone.

Thanks NSC!

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What line of business are you in ?

May be you are just a f***ing arsehole to work for

Generate a false flag incident and sack the twat.

NorthstandRacoon said:

Now, I am very fair and understanding, but they seem like the type that doesn't like authority or being told/asked what to do/how to do things, or taking advice.

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I find this bit interesting. How do you ask them to do things? Do you treat them as an equal person and ask with the usual politeness you would ask anyone to do something or as someone who is below you and order them around?

I had some managers who fell into the last camp and it can def rub you up the wrong way. I had actual stand up fights with one of them because of it.

I’m a manager of a team myself now and it’s the one thing I vowed not to be, overtly authoritarian. I wonder that from you saying about giving “advice” as well. Are you just being “Do as I say” about things, without actually having a reason to say what they are doing or the way they are doing things is especially bad or wrong? Are they getting the work done?

The sickness issue should in theory be easier. If they have a condition then anything more than a week needs a doctors line so you know if it’s genuine or not. Does your work have occupational health? You can refer them there for support if they have persistent sickness and it needs managed.

clapham_gull said:

The problem with the HR industry is that is has long moved away from their previous incarnation as "personnel" into an industry populated with 20 somethings with limited life and work experience. A degree in sociology from a minor university helps, as does a fixation with social engineering.

Love the power, hate the responsibility.

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100% this. They also have a tendency more recently to always assume the employee is ‘right’, and are terrified of taking any risks. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve had to ignore HR ‘advice’ and (with approval from my own superiors) take a different course of action when there have been issues. They’ll drag you down a route of endless ‘performance improvement plans’ for employees who are a problem, then ‘fail’ those plans on a technicality so you have to start again…..all the while meaning you potentially have an underperforming and/or disruptive staffmember for much, much longer. Luckily I worked in organisations where HR were viewed by my bosses to be there to facilitate our decisions, not make them for us which meant for underperforming staff for example a rapid, blunt conversation and a payoff was often the solution.

NorthstandRacoon said:

Please can anyone suggest how to deal with this?! My 2nd time managing and first full time management of someone.

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This is an interesting line. You may think I'm an old cynic, but why would your boss give you someone with a known poor work history as the first employee for you to manage when you have very little experience

Line management is one of the biggest challenges when you make the first move into management. When you get more senior this part at least becomes easier. Firstly employees know you have a real say over their future, which gains you at least superficial respect. You also have better tools for managing problem staff, either delegate down their line management or give them a workload/opportunities, which you know will encourage them to look elsewhere for employment.

For now listen to what they have to say. There will be something about how you approach certain types of people, which you can improve upon, particularly if you are having a bad/stressful day. None of us are perfect and it helps to understand the impact we can have on others, especially "problem" employees.

The specific opportunity provided here, is to support that they are moved to a different section to avoid any clashes with your management style and to make sure HR record, from your perspective why this didn't work out. If the problems continue, you can at least support the next manager in bringing this to a conclusion.

Keep it factual and remove the emotion from it. Make a timeline of events which cannot be disputed. You have to be careful with discipline for sickness, especially in this day and age Otherwise you’ll be offending/discriminating someone somewhere.

The cynic in me suggests that the employee is looking to be forced out so they can make an unfair dismissal claim.

NorthstandRacoon said:

Hmmm I don't want to give up that easily, we have a new hire starting Monday who is the same position as said person, it'll be very interesting to see if this changes things, also.

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Sounds like your company might have taken action to start easing said person out the door...

In my experience, no workplace issue was ever improved by the involvement of HR.

It's a shame that your employer does not appear to be giving you the support and backing that a member of their management team deserves.

dazzer6666 said:

100% this. They also have a tendency more recently to always assume the employee is ‘right’, and are terrified of taking any risks. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve had to ignore HR ‘advice’ and (with approval from my own superiors) take a different course of action when there have been issues. They’ll drag you down a route of endless ‘performance improvement plans’ for employees who are a problem, then ‘fail’ those plans on a technicality so you have to start again…..all the while meaning you potentially have an underperforming and/or disruptive staffmember for much, much longer. Luckily I worked in organisations where HR were viewed by my bosses to be there to facilitate our decisions, not make them for us which meant for underperforming staff for example a rapid, blunt conversation and a payoff was often the solution.

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Sounds like you’re the chairman of a premier league football club

Get hold of their job description/contract and read it carefully to make sure you are not asking anything if them that they are not employed to do.

Note comparisons of output between them and their peers.

Push HR to follow up on "sickness" and write up a support plan, that includes a conditional trigger of final warning if sickness continues. If they are not fit enough to do the job then a replacement can be sought

NorthstandRacoon said:

As much as I would love to rant about how I think Chelsea could nick Europe from us, I have an issue I want some thoughts/advise on.

One of my employees in my team is playing up. About 3-4 weeks ago, they took sick leave for the umpteenth time, at a moment when we really needed them. My superior agreed it was the final straw and we were going to give them a warning. (their sick record is bad) This warning never happened. Turns out, there was a bit more to it, but I'm just waiting for when it happens again.

Following on, they've recently gone above my head when I ask them to do something and because every time I have asked them to do something over the last 2-3 weeks, that will help them in the long run, they literally react like a child. To the point I had to stop trying to explain the benefits to them because I could feel myself getting f***ing annoyed.

Then, we had a meeting this morning and both agreed a compromise. All was well, so I thought. Fast forward to this afternoon, and I now have HR involved and we are now due a meeting with said employee because they've said that this way of working, and working under me, has put them off even coming into work.

Now, I am very fair and understanding, but they seem like the type that doesn't like authority or being told/asked what to do/how to do things, or taking advice.

I can't remember a time when I suggested/asked them to do a task which meant changing their work slightly (for the better mind), when they actually just went, 'OK, it's not what I'm used to, but I'll give it ago' then give thoughts on how it went and if we needed to change it to how so it works for the team and them. Instead, they go and cry wolf.

I can honestly say, I really do not think I have done anything wrong in my management style, I am the first to admit when I am wrong, (as per my posts on here at times, for example). If there is a problem, I ask to speak to them in a meeting room, so I can solve it with them. And even then, they will say everything fine, and still go to HR/my boss.

Please can anyone suggest how to deal with this?! My 2nd time managing and first full time management of someone.

Thanks NSC!

Click to expand...

It's sad to see so many people experience HR negatively - part of the reason HR is like it is in some organisations is because the brief they have is so messed up. In many organisations they are the shield that's used by bosses to avoid having to deal with the staff, in many (I'd even say most) their role is to implement what the bosses want and they are the middleman between the bosses and the rest of the staff so become the target for the decisions that aren't of their making, some, like it seems to be in the OPs organisation, they are seen as the police and a threat "I'll go to HR..." which just adds to the fact they are seen as doing all the "dirty" jobs and negatively associated with everything and everyone hates them, in other organisations they are so tied up by processes and rules and regulations (some of their own making though often driven by law or by bosses wanting something they then won't fund or actively support) that they can't function effectively.

I read something recently with someone laughing about the fact that an HR team that made people redundant was then made redundant, The HR team didn't make anyone redundant though, they never do, the business does, HR just have to do the dirty work of working through the legal process and making it happen. It's not HR that decide no pay rises this year, or you have to go back into the office when you'd rather work from home, or any one of 101 other things they get blamed for because their job is to communicate it.

Sometimes they aren't good, and everyone including me has an HR horror story about having to do reviews or away days they hate, or worse, but often there's a bigger picture as to why that's the case and many don't get the credit they deserve - I know of HR people who have left well paid jobs rather than carry out actions demanded by managers that they don't think are being done right and respectfully for staff and have been ignored when fighting against that. In one case the company went ahead anyway, and without the advice of an experienced HR person made a major legal blunder and is being sued for millions. That HR person was no doubt disliked by many where they worked and seen in all sorts of negative ways for all the reasons above, because part of the role of HR is discretion so no-one in their business will know the things that didn't happen that they were asked to do by management but fought against, they'll only see the things that did happen where they lost the battle. (For disclosure, I don't work in HR specifically, but very closely to many HR people, the majority of whom are fantastic and a huge benefit to their organisations.)

Anyway, OP - it sounds like you're doing the right thing, don't doubt yourself. See HR as your allies and ask them to support you in getting the right outcome for your organisation. You can spin it onto your team member too and ask them, in front of HR, what they'd like you to do differently - make it not about them, but the impact of their behaviour so it's not personal. "We need to do X so our business can make money and survive/serve our customers/whatever the language your place uses is...how do we work together to do that?". Make it clear you're prepared to listen and adjust and keep being the reasonable one, and ask HR (with your team member in the room) to support you both in drawing up an action plan for resolving the situation that makes it measurable whether improvement has taken place and with regular reviews of that, with HR, so it doesn't drag on. Document everything and every conversation you have with the team member confirm understanding in writing after - it can be done informally, it doesn't have to be formal, but it documents things and gives them the opportunity to contest it which might be important later.

upthealbion1970 said:

How long has this person worked for the company?

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1.5 years.

I had a no dissimilar situation a few years ago with a staff member. My advice/ what I was given at the time:

Makes sure you give them an opportunity to say their piece and recognise genuine issues that they have. I’d open discussions by hearing them out, it can make them feel heard but also give someone enough rope etc….

Document as much evidence as you can of them not fulfilling their job description.

Make sure you document discussions telling them they are performing poorly - don’t give them any excuse to back track and make sure they know what you feel they are doing wrong so they can be clear on what needs to improve. Be technical rather than personal. Focus on expected work performance and behaviours rather than personal traits.

Be prepared to argue your case in discussions - try to anticipate their excuses and evidence why they are incorrect.

Try to stay calm and not get angry in discussions about it, with them or others eg HR. Remember, you are the senior person and need to demonstrate that, which helps show authority but also a bit of reasonableness and empathy towards them and not give the impression it’s a personal grudge.

Really difficult to advise without knowing your and their character. Maybe ask them what you can do to make their job/life easier and that gets the job done? I used to look at any failure to get what I wanted out of someone and have a think about what I could have done better or differently, to motivate them. Some people are motivated just by being told their work is appreciated, some are task orientated, and have to finish something themselves to be satisfied, some need hand holding and support on every step, some want to let everyone know every time they have to overcome an issue, some just want to be left alone to get on with it and do it their way, some are useless ****s that love drama and make everything hard work no matter what you do.
Be a bit sympathetic about the time off they have had, it might be the stress of working under you, people who have lots of time off are often just really unhappy at work. Sometimes it doesn't matter what that work is, they just don't like work, but it might be an overbearing manager, or a workload that is too heavy.
What reasons are given for time off sick?

Thank god I own my own Business (taxi) and it’s just the two of us . I wouldn’t last 5 mins in this nanny woke world we live in now . Although I sack the wife in a daily basis only to reinstate her immediately

I had an HR company who helped when I had a larger company of 15+ employees. But every time I had a problem they went all VAR on me and tried to find a way not to sack a person simply because they had to pay any unfair dismisal money.
A member of staff went sick and claimed sick pay from me. I knew they had a cash in hand job as a hotel cleaner but that meant nothing. It took weeks of meetings that they didn't turn up at before I could give them a months notice, all the time unable to replace them but paying them about £100 a week.

I've been self employed for the last 20 years or so, prior to that I managed a team of about 10 people and yes it was both enjoyable but bloody painful at times. No one to answer to all these years has been a god send.