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[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...



WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,877
abc said:
I agree but it poses an interesting question: If there is a desire of the people (remembering democracy literally means 'people rule') for constitutional change but the constitution has created a monopoly of power for only two parties that have an overriding self interest to prevent change, how can the will of the people ever be implemented? Demonstrations are possible of course, but again it is in the interests of the ruling party (Lab or Cons) to ignore them and they can.
Do we turn to the King (which opens up another set of constitutional issues), civil unrest (thankfully not in the British DNA when it comes to politics and is surely not want anyone wants) or do we simply accept that our 'great democracy' is a sham and not much better than the bogus democracies in countries like Russia?
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I'm afraid that following the 'will of the people' being acted on in 2016 and 2019, I've decided that 'the people' get exactly what they deserve, and exhausted by the level of idiocy, have simply taken on the role of bemused bystander. It's down to my kids now.

I am aware that millions of innocents have suffered and not got what they deserve and they have my deepest sympathies. Maybe next time people will be motivated enough to actually get out and vote to stop it, but I'm not holding my breath. Sorry :down:
 




MJsGhost

MJsGhost

Oooh Matron, I'm an
NSC Patron
Jun 26, 2009
4,502
East
abc said:
I agree but it poses an interesting question: If there is a desire of the people (remembering democracy literally means 'people rule') for constitutional change but the constitution has created a monopoly of power for only two parties that have an overriding self interest to prevent change, how can the will of the people ever be implemented? Demonstrations are possible of course, but again it is in the interests of the ruling party (Lab or Cons) to ignore them and they can.
Do we turn to the King (which opens up another set of constitutional issues), civil unrest (thankfully not in the British DNA when it comes to politics and is surely not want anyone wants) or do we simply accept that our 'great democracy' is a sham and not much better than the bogus democracies in countries like Russia?
Click to expand...
That's where a one issue party pops up, gains traction and then one of the two adopt that policy to win their support.

Hopefully the outcome would be more defined and more honestly debated beforehand to avoid a Brexit scenario
 




tedebear

tedebear

Legal Alien
Jul 7, 2003
16,841
In my computer
WATFORD zero said:
I'm afraid that following the 'will of the people' being acted on in 2016 and 2019, I've decided that 'the people' get exactly what they deserve, and exhausted by the level of idiocy, have simply taken on the role of bemused bystander. It's down to my kids now.

I am aware that millions of innocents have suffered and not got what they deserve and they have my deepest sympathies. Maybe next time people will be motivated enough to actually get out and vote to stop it, but I'm not holding my breath. Sorry :down:
Click to expand...

Agree, they absolutely get what they deserve. I spend my time wondering when we will hit rock bottom for people to change their voting ways....I continue to be astounded about this, both here and in the USA. Its just incredible how people park certain things including morals and bare faced facts at the polling booth door and vote Tory "as I can't vote anything else"....I'm sure there are studies into this, but it just astounds me. I get the science behind why people vote for Trump - dictators have clear methods to gain these votes (although it still astounds me people dont see through it), but the Tory party are not dictators, and so it continues to befuddle me. In the Wellingborough by election 7k people still voted Tory, the Tory candidate who is the partner to the disgraced outgoing MP. My brain does not compute...
 






G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,341
Uffern
Thunder Bolt said:
I’m not so sure he has a positive approval rating. She’s definitely a proven liar.
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That wasn't my opinion: there was a survey two weeks ago looking at possible Conservative leaders (among the electorate, not members) and she was the only senior Tory with a positive rating. It was only 2% but it was lot better than Suella Braverman's minus 40.
 


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,877
Gwylan said:
That wasn't my opinion: there was a survey two weeks ago looking at possible Conservative leaders (among the electorate, not members) and she was the only senior Tory with a positive rating. It was only 2% but it was lot better than Suella Braverman's minus 40.
Click to expand...

I really wish those were the ratings from within the party, because it would mean that the members are giving negative ratings and then voting for those same people to run the country. I see not, as it really isn't possible to reach that lower level of gross stupidity........


... is it ? :lolol:
 
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A1X

A1X

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Sep 1, 2017
17,873
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Gwylan said:
Elect Penny Mordaunt as leader - the one that Labour fear and the only Tory with a positive approval rating among voters. I'm not sure she'd win but would greatly reduce the Labour majority and possible lead to a hung parliament.
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Realistically this is the only chance the Tories have of at least stemming the bleeding, the problem is the rank and file membership are so utterly radicalised that I don’t think she’d have a cat-in-hell’s chance of winning a leadership contest over the likes of Badenoch, Braverman or anyone else on the nutter wing.

MPs could impose her as leader again (as they did with Sunak), but I don’t think they have the unity in Westminster to do it anymore, and there’d be revolt in the local HQs. And even then you’d need to convince her to do it when the likelihood is it might only be for a few months before electoral defeat and subsequent carnage within the party.

As said previously, the Tories won’t be saved until they have their “Neil Kinnock vs Militant” moment where a moderate leader has the courage to stand up to the nutters and take them down, however painful it might be. Could she do that? Maybe. But they’re at least five years (and two electoral thumpings) away from that.
 
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chickens

chickens

Intending to survive this time of asset strippers
Oct 12, 2022
1,866
WATFORD zero said:
Please tell me those are the ratings from within the party, because it would mean that the members are giving negative ratings and then voting for those same people to run the country. I'm guessing not, as it really isn't possible to reach that lower level of gross stupidity........


... is it ? :lolol:
Click to expand...

These people are MORONS, can we have them for four more years please.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,315
abc said:
I agree but it poses an interesting question: If there is a desire of the people (remembering democracy literally means 'people rule') for constitutional change but the constitution has created a monopoly of power for only two parties that have an overriding self interest to prevent change, how can the will of the people ever be implemented? Demonstrations are possible of course, but again it is in the interests of the ruling party (Lab or Cons) to ignore them and they can.
Do we turn to the King (which opens up another set of constitutional issues), civil unrest (thankfully not in the British DNA when it comes to politics and is surely not want anyone wants) or do we simply accept that our 'great democracy' is a sham and not much better than the bogus democracies in countries like Russia?
Click to expand...
how about this: there isnt much desire for constitutional change, the people are content with the status quo. if this was the burning number 1 issue, they'd vote for the option providing it and Lib Dems would romp home to victory. there's nothing in the constitution that prevents a new party winning, its just the pesky voters content with the options in front of them. see Labour's rise over Liberals as the champion for social reform.
 


Sid and the Sharknados

Sid and the Sharknados

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Sep 4, 2022
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beorhthelm said:
how about this: there isnt much desire for constitutional change, the people are content with the status quo. if this was the burning number 1 issue, they'd vote for the option providing it and Lib Dems would romp home to victory. there's nothing in the constitution that prevents a new party winning, its just the pesky voters content with the options in front of them. see Labour's rise over Liberals as the champion for social reform.
Click to expand...
By that logic, everybody should stop moaning about Brexit because if anybody really cared about it they'd have voted Lib Dem in 2017 or 2019. :shrug:
You don't have to go back as far as the 1920s, the SNP managed to win over 90% of Scottish seats less than 10years ago. Which I struggle to believe delighted the 50% of voters who had voted for other parties.
 




B

BLOCK F

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2009
6,359
Lever said:
...or the tories remain the toxic brand they are at present.
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I think it unlikely that either of the main parties ‘lose their marbles’ for ever.
Labour had to cleanse themselves of the Corbyn disaster and the Tories will do likewise during a much needed suitable period in Opposition. It is obviously no good for democracy to have only one party in power for ever and it is in the country’s interest to have a strong Opposition whichever party is in power.
 


B

Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
11,872
Cumbria
BLOCK F said:
It is obviously no good for democracy to have only one party in power for ever and it is in the country’s interest to have a strong Opposition whichever party is in power.
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I'd be quite happy with a left-leaning party and a centrist party alternating being in power and opposition. They don't have to be quite so polarised.
 


chickens

chickens

Intending to survive this time of asset strippers
Oct 12, 2022
1,866
BLOCK F said:
I think it unlikely that either of the main parties ‘lose their marbles’ for ever.
Labour had to cleanse themselves of the Corbyn disaster and the Tories will do likewise during a much needed suitable period in Opposition. It is obviously no good for democracy to have only one party in power for ever and it is in the country’s interest to have a strong Opposition whichever party is in power.
Click to expand...

I agree completely, but on both occasions within my living memory, the times that the Conservative Party have been in power, by the end of their “reign” the country has absolutely been on its knees.

I can 100% see myself getting sick of a Labour government in the future, and I can 100% see myself voting for another party in the future, but I will not cast a vote for the Conservative Party again in my lifetime.

If we’re stuck with this 2 party system induced by FPTP then so be it, but could we not swap out the incompetent financial terrorism of the Conservatives for something a little less ideological and insane?

I think life could actually be quite pleasant in this country if we alternated between e.g. the Lib Dem’s and Labour.
 




M

medwayseagull reborn

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2022
344
Gwylan said:
That wasn't my opinion: there was a survey two weeks ago looking at possible Conservative leaders (among the electorate, not members) and she was the only senior Tory with a positive rating. It was only 2% but it was lot better than Suella Braverman's minus 40.
Click to expand...
She only got that positive rating because she proved she could stroll around Westminster Abbey holding a sword upright.
 


SeagullsoverLondon

SeagullsoverLondon

......
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Jun 20, 2021
3,234
chickens said:
I agree completely, but on both occasions within my living memory, the times that the Conservative Party have been in power, by the end of their “reign” the country has absolutely been on its knees.

I can 100% see myself getting sick of a Labour government in the future, and I can 100% see myself voting for another party in the future, but I will not cast a vote for the Conservative Party again in my lifetime.

If we’re stuck with this 2 party system induced by FPTP then so be it, but could we not swap out the incompetent financial terrorism of the Conservatives for something a little less ideological and insane?

I think life could actually be quite pleasant in this country if we alternated between e.g. the Lib Dem’s and Labour.
Click to expand...
That's not strictly true. After the debacle of Black Wednesday in 1992, the economy recovered very well and in 1997 was growing strongly.
Ironically, 1997 was the best ever year for economic growth under Blair/Brown Labour and most of that was down the policies put in place by Major in the year leading up to the election.
Rather than the country, it was the Conservative Party itself that was on its knees, much like the knight in Monty Python.
In another bit of irony, I think history will repeat itself, with any recovery coming too late to save Sunak and his disunified party, but allowing a kick start for Starmer and co.
 


B

BLOCK F

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2009
6,359
chickens said:
I agree completely, but on both occasions within my living memory, the times that the Conservative Party have been in power, by the end of their “reign” the country has absolutely been on its knees.

I can 100% see myself getting sick of a Labour government in the future, and I can 100% see myself voting for another party in the future, but I will not cast a vote for the Conservative Party again in my lifetime.

If we’re stuck with this 2 party system induced by FPTP then so be it, but could we not swap out the incompetent financial terrorism of the Conservatives for something a little less ideological and insane?

I think life could actually be quite pleasant in this country if we alternated between e.g. the Lib Dem’s and Labour.
Click to expand...
That is your view, but not one that everyone will agree with.
The ‘incompetent financial terrorism’ you mention has not always been a hallmark of Conservative Governments and I refer you to the reply from Seagulls Over London.
If the Conservatives want to get back into power again, and succeed, it will be because they will have come to their senses in Opposition to once again become a party of the centre right, rather like Sir Keir has had to ditch the lunatic Corbynistas and steer Labour back to the centre left.
 


A1X

A1X

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Sep 1, 2017
17,873
Deepest, darkest Sussex
 




chickens

chickens

Intending to survive this time of asset strippers
Oct 12, 2022
1,866
SeagullsoverLondon said:
That's not strictly true. After the debacle of Black Wednesday in 1992, the economy recovered very well and in 1997 was growing strongly.
Ironically, 1997 was the best ever year for economic growth under Blair/Brown Labour and most of that was down the policies put in place by Major in the year leading up to the election.
Rather than the country, it was the Conservative Party itself that was on its knees, much like the knight in Monty Python.
In another bit of irony, I think history will repeat itself, with any recovery coming too late to save Sunak and his disunified party, but allowing a kick start for Starmer and co.
Click to expand...

Perhaps in a “numbers” sense it was, but my overriding memory of that period was a lot of empty shops until about 12 months after Labour were in power.

I also think it’s possible to do so much damage to an economy that there’s no more downside available, any underlying assets are already trading at a discount to their true value.

Praising the Conservative Party for the economy recovering after Black Wednesday is a bit like praising a drunk driver for rolling his car the right way up after he’s slid it upside down through a class of schoolchildren.
 


chickens

chickens

Intending to survive this time of asset strippers
Oct 12, 2022
1,866
BLOCK F said:
That is your view, but not one that everyone will agree with.
The ‘incompetent financial terrorism’ you mention has not always been a hallmark of Conservative Governments and I refer you to the reply from Seagulls Over London.
If the Conservatives want to get back into power again, and succeed, it will be because they will have come to their senses in Opposition to once again become a party of the centre right, rather like Sir Keir has had to ditch the lunatic Corbynistas and steer Labour back to the centre left.
Click to expand...

While I agree with you that the path back to acceptability for the Conservative Party is to regain their “we’re moderate and chummy” face a la Cameron, I think the issue now is that the electorate knows what lurks beneath.

All the while there’s a Rees-Mogg, an Anderson, and Braverman, Truss, Patel et al lurking behind whatever new face they find, the Conservative Party are not sound.

I am honestly not detecting any appetite to lose those individuals at present, in fact the clamour from card carrying members appears to be to remould the party in their image.

I will absolutely vote against Labour at some point, every government goes stale, but I do wonder if the Conservatives have done so much damage this time that the electorate has genuinely had enough of them. However chummy they get.
 


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