[Politics] Brexit

[DavidinSouthampton]

Frankly, it’s all got f*** all to do with you.


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How rude!

 

[Hampster Gull]

Let's be clear about this - and it is important that proper political distinctions are made - neither Jeremy Corbyn nor John McDonnell are Marxists. McDonnell has never been a Marxist and to the best of my knowledge neither has Corbyn - neither have ever been members of a Marxist party. In classical political terms both would best be described as left social democrats.

Right-wingers throw words like Marxist around as if it is some sort of insult - when most clearly have no idea what being a Marxist actually means.

Now - Corbyn and McDonnell deserve support and an opportunity to implement the left / socialist policies that they are campaigning on. The Tories and the Blairites have destroyed Britain since the time of Thatcher. If Corbyn gets elected the Blairites in his own party will attempt to prevent the implementation of the policies he promoted and it will be up to working class people to take to the streets - and socialists within the trade union movement to force their leaderships - to defend the policies being promoted by Corbyn and McDonnell.

As for Engels and Marx - both were notorious for getting drunk and going around smashing up shop windows - social activities do not determine political outlook.

I have no problem with someone being a Marxist, they won’t be the first or the last and they may even be right, although I strongly doubt it. I dislike though them or others pretending to be something else. Call it out as it is.

In 2006, McDonnell said that "Marx, Lenin and Trotsky" were his "most significant" intellectual influences.

Footage emerged of McDonnell in 2013 talking about the financial crisis of 2007–2008 and stating, "I've been waiting for this for a generation! We’ve got to demand systemic change. Look, I’m straight, I’m honest with people: I’m a Marxist."

During an interview with Andrew Marr when the footage was played and McDonnell was asked, "Are you a Marxist?", he replied: "I believe there's a lot to learn from reading Kapital, yes of course there is, and that's been recommended not just by me but many others, mainstream economists as well".

In 2018, McDonnell attended the Marx 200 conference and stated that "Marxism is about the freedom of spirit, the development of life chances, the enhancement of democracy".

In 2019, McDonnell during an interview stated that Marx’s Kapital is “one of the important analyses of the modern capitalist system.”

In 2015 McDonnell chose to brandish a copy of the Little Red Book of the Chinese communist leader Mao Zedong in the Houses of Parliament during his response to the spending review. Why quote from a communist leader who has been blamed for the famine that cost up to 45 million lives in China during the “Great Leap Forward”.

Let’s not get into his support for the IRA “hero’s”. In 2003 "It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA". Another extreme left winger who hates the U.K.

And no, they don’t deserve anything, they have to earn it.

 

[beorhthelm]

Let's be clear about this - and it is important that proper political distinctions are made - neither Jeremy Corbyn nor John McDonnell are Marxists. McDonnell has never been a Marxist and to the best of my knowledge neither has Corbyn - neither have ever been members of a Marxist party.
[...]
If Corbyn gets elected the Blairites in his own party will attempt to prevent the implementation of the policies he promoted and it will be up to working class people to take to the streets - and socialists within the trade union movement to force their leaderships - to defend the policies being promoted by Corbyn and McDonnell.

McDonnell is a self identifying follower of Marx. By claiming the working class will take to the streets you are promoting proletarian revolution, cornerstone of the communist ideology. if thats what you believe is the way forward, have the decency to stand by it.

 

[Hampster Gull]

McDonnell is a self identifying follower of Marx. By claiming the working class will take to the streets you are promoting proletarian revolution, cornerstone of the communist ideology. if thats what you believe is the way forward, have the decency to stand by it.

That’s the point, stop bullshitting or dancing around, say what you are and intend to do

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Let's be clear about this - and it is important that proper political distinctions are made - neither Jeremy Corbyn nor John McDonnell are Marxists. McDonnell has never been a Marxist and to the best of my knowledge neither has Corbyn - neither have ever been members of a Marxist party. In classical political terms both would best be described as left social democrats.

Right-wingers throw words like Marxist around as if it is some sort of insult - when most clearly have no idea what being a Marxist actually means.

Now - Corbyn and McDonnell deserve support and an opportunity to implement the left / socialist policies that they are campaigning on. The Tories and the Blairites have destroyed Britain since the time of Thatcher. If Corbyn gets elected the Blairites in his own party will attempt to prevent the implementation of the policies he promoted and it will be up to working class people to take to the streets - and socialists within the trade union movement to force their leaderships - to defend the policies being promoted by Corbyn and McDonnell.

As for Engels and Marx - both were notorious for getting drunk and going around smashing up shop windows - social activities do not determine political outlook.

An early contender for funniest post of the general election campaign or [MENTION=1200]Harry Wilson's tackle[/MENTION] second account?

 

[Guinness Boy]

How rude!

Yeah, it’s funny how the island of Ireland wants to be completely independent until it comes to Westminster election time, when suddenly they’re lecturing us over a pedantic definition of Marxism


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[WATFORD zero]

An early contender for funniest post of the general election campaign or [MENTION=1200]Harry Wilson's tackle[/MENTION] second account?

Almost as funny as an ardent Unionist backing a Johnson border down the Irish sea

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have no problem with someone being a Marxist, they won’t be the first or the last and they may even be right, although I strongly doubt it. I dislike though them or others pretending to be something else. Call it out as it is.

In 2006, McDonnell said that "Marx, Lenin and Trotsky" were his "most significant" intellectual influences.

Footage emerged of McDonnell in 2013 talking about the financial crisis of 2007–2008 and stating, "I've been waiting for this for a generation! We’ve got to demand systemic change. Look, I’m straight, I’m honest with people: I’m a Marxist."

During an interview with Andrew Marr when the footage was played and McDonnell was asked, "Are you a Marxist?", he replied: "I believe there's a lot to learn from reading Kapital, yes of course there is, and that's been recommended not just by me but many others, mainstream economists as well".

In 2018, McDonnell attended the Marx 200 conference and stated that "Marxism is about the freedom of spirit, the development of life chances, the enhancement of democracy".

In 2019, McDonnell during an interview stated that Marx’s Kapital is “one of the important analyses of the modern capitalist system.”

In 2015 McDonnell chose to brandish a copy of the Little Red Book of the Chinese communist leader Mao Zedong in the Houses of Parliament during his response to the spending review. Why quote from a communist leader who has been blamed for the famine that cost up to 45 million lives in China during the “Great Leap Forward”.

Let’s not get into his support for the IRA “hero’s”. In 2003 "It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA". Another extreme left winger who hates the U.K.

And no, they don’t deserve anything, they have to earn it.

Yep.

They are around my age and whiff of the student politics of the early 70s. To me, trying to understand the modern world on the basis of an analysis of the 19th century two class system by a philosopher of that time is almost as stupid as trying to understand the modern world by reading the Bible or Quran.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I have no problem with someone being a Marxist, they won’t be the first or the last and they may even be right, although I strongly doubt it. I dislike though them or others pretending to be something else. Call it out as it is.

In 2006, McDonnell said that "Marx, Lenin and Trotsky" were his "most significant" intellectual influences.

Footage emerged of McDonnell in 2013 talking about the financial crisis of 2007–2008 and stating, "I've been waiting for this for a generation! We’ve got to demand systemic change. Look, I’m straight, I’m honest with people: I’m a Marxist."

During an interview with Andrew Marr when the footage was played and McDonnell was asked, "Are you a Marxist?", he replied: "I believe there's a lot to learn from reading Kapital, yes of course there is, and that's been recommended not just by me but many others, mainstream economists as well".

In 2018, McDonnell attended the Marx 200 conference and stated that "Marxism is about the freedom of spirit, the development of life chances, the enhancement of democracy".

In 2019, McDonnell during an interview stated that Marx’s Kapital is “one of the important analyses of the modern capitalist system.”

In 2015 McDonnell chose to brandish a copy of the Little Red Book of the Chinese communist leader Mao Zedong in the Houses of Parliament during his response to the spending review. Why quote from a communist leader who has been blamed for the famine that cost up to 45 million lives in China during the “Great Leap Forward”.

Let’s not get into his support for the IRA “hero’s”. In 2003 "It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA". Another extreme left winger who hates the U.K.

And no, they don’t deserve anything, they have to earn it.

McDonnell is a self identifying follower of Marx. By claiming the working class will take to the streets you are promoting proletarian revolution, cornerstone of the communist ideology. if thats what you believe is the way forward, have the decency to stand by it.

Jaysus people - just because someone says they were influenced by Marx and other Marxist theoreticians - does not make you a Marxist. I was brought up a Catholic, it has enormously influenced my life - but it doesn't make me a Catholic now.

If McDonnell was a Marxist he would be a member of a revolutionary Marxist party - it is a prerequisite for anyone who regards themselves as a Marxist (unless you regard the LP as a Marxist party) - and by the way, Mao was never a Marxist, he was a populist nationalist who used left rhetoric and evolved into a Stalinist dictator (in the same way that saying you were influenced by Marx doesn't make you a Marxist, calling yourself a Marxist doesn't make you a Marxist).

As for the other guff - I disagree with the attitude of Corbyn and McDonnell towards Irish republicanism. But this type of smear demonstrates a false approach. The Tories spent the entire period of the Troubles in the North negotiating with the Provos - including agreeing ceasefires with them. But worse than that - the British state assassinated republicans during the shoot-to-kill period - the British state colluded with loyalist paramilitaries who engaged in sectarian assassinations in the North (including turning a blind eye to the murders carried out by the Shankill Butchers) - the British army shot and killed 11 innocent people in Ballymurphy in 1971 - the British army shot 28 unarmed civilians, killing 14 of them during Bloody Sunday in Derry in 1972 - and a British agent was one of those responsible for the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 that killed 34 people. And to demonstrate where I am coming from - I have a cousin who was caught up in the Dublin bombing in Talbot Street in 1974 (fortunately he only received minor injuries) and a friend of mine was shot three times in the back of the head and killed by a loyalist paramilitary in a sectarian shooting in Belfast in 1986.

Now - if you want to criticise McDonnell for what I would agree is a false representation of the nature of the provo campaign in the North then you should also acknowledge the antics of the Tories and the British state during the Troubles as well rather than just labeling McDonnell as someone 'who hates the UK'.

Last point - even the most ardent capitalist economists acknowledge that Marx's Capital was correct in its analysis of modern global capitalism. The one thing I would agree with is the quote from McDonnell that you give from 2018 - that one is spot on.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Jaysus people - just because someone says they were influenced by Marx and other Marxist theoreticians - does not make you a Marxist. I was brought up a Catholic, it has enormously influenced my life - but it doesn't make me a Catholic now.

If McDonnell was a Marxist he would be a member of a revolutionary Marxist party - it is a prerequisite for anyone who regards themselves as a Marxist (unless you regard the LP as a Marxist party) - and by the way, Mao was never a Marxist, he was a populist nationalist who used left rhetoric and evolved into a Stalinist dictator (in the same way that saying you were influenced by Marx doesn't make you a Marxist, calling yourself a Marxist doesn't make you a Marxist).

As for the other guff - I disagree with the attitude of Corbyn and McDonnell towards Irish republicanism. But this type of smear demonstrates a false approach. The Tories spent the entire period of the Troubles in the North negotiating with the Provos - including agreeing ceasefires with them. But worse than that - the British state assassinated republicans during the shoot-to-kill period - the British state colluded with loyalist paramilitaries who engaged in sectarian assassinations in the North (including turning a blind eye to the murders carried out by the Shankill Butchers) - the British army shot and killed 11 innocent people in Ballymurphy in 1971 - the British army shot 28 unarmed civilians, killing 14 of them during Bloody Sunday in Derry in 1972 - and a British agent was one of those responsible for the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 that killed 34 people. And to demonstrate where I am coming from - I have a cousin who was caught up in the Dublin bombing in Talbot Street in 1974 (fortunately he only received minor injuries) and a friend of mine was shot three times in the back of the head and killed by a loyalist paramilitary in a sectarian shooting in Belfast in 1986.

Now - if you want to criticise McDonnell for what I would agree is a false representation of the nature of the provo campaign in the North then you should also acknowledge the antics of the Tories and the British state during the Troubles as well rather than just labeling McDonnell as someone 'who hates the UK'.

Last point - even the most ardent capitalist economists acknowledge that Marx's Capital was correct in its analysis of modern global capitalism. The one thing I would agree with is the quote from McDonnell that you give from 2018 - that one is spot on.

Keep the red rag flying high , are you SWP by any chance ?
Regards
DF

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Yeah, it’s funny how the island of Ireland wants to be completely independent until it comes to Westminster election time, when suddenly they’re lecturing us over a pedantic definition of Marxism

And you think that what happens in Britain doesn't have any impact on Ireland?

So you know where I am coming from - I have far more in common with British workers than I do with Irish Tories - I have no interest in a united Ireland on a capitalist basis - I am in favour of a socialist Ireland and a socialist England, Scotland and Wales working together on the basis of mutual cooperation.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Keep the red rag flying high , are you SWP by any chance ?
Regards
DF

Nope - once again people picking the wrong one - football or politics - nobody can get it right.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Jaysus people - just because someone says they were influenced by Marx and other Marxist theoreticians - does not make you a Marxist. I was brought up a Catholic, it has enormously influenced my life - but it doesn't make me a Catholic now.

If McDonnell was a Marxist he would be a member of a revolutionary Marxist party - it is a prerequisite for anyone who regards themselves as a Marxist (unless you regard the LP as a Marxist party) - and by the way, Mao was never a Marxist, he was a populist nationalist who used left rhetoric and evolved into a Stalinist dictator (in the same way that saying you were influenced by Marx doesn't make you a Marxist, calling yourself a Marxist doesn't make you a Marxist).

As for the other guff - I disagree with the attitude of Corbyn and McDonnell towards Irish republicanism. But this type of smear demonstrates a false approach. The Tories spent the entire period of the Troubles in the North negotiating with the Provos - including agreeing ceasefires with them. But worse than that - the British state assassinated republicans during the shoot-to-kill period - the British state colluded with loyalist paramilitaries who engaged in sectarian assassinations in the North (including turning a blind eye to the murders carried out by the Shankill Butchers) - the British army shot and killed 11 innocent people in Ballymurphy in 1971 - the British army shot 28 unarmed civilians, killing 14 of them during Bloody Sunday in Derry in 1972 - and a British agent was one of those responsible for the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 that killed 34 people. And to demonstrate where I am coming from - I have a cousin who was caught up in the Dublin bombing in Talbot Street in 1974 (fortunately he only received minor injuries) and a friend of mine was shot three times in the back of the head and killed by a loyalist paramilitary in a sectarian shooting in Belfast in 1986.

Now - if you want to criticise McDonnell for what I would agree is a false representation of the nature of the provo campaign in the North then you should also acknowledge the antics of the Tories and the British state during the Troubles as well rather than just labeling McDonnell as someone 'who hates the UK'.

Last point - even the most ardent capitalist economists acknowledge that Marx's Capital was correct in its analysis of modern global capitalism. The one thing I would agree with is the quote from McDonnell that you give from 2018 - that one is spot on.

Except for the time he actually says he’s a Marxist. But whatever, labels are not always helpful. He will hopefully be binned into the history books along with Michael Foot. And the purgers at Momentum. The choice is soon.

 

[nicko31]

Not that widely reported.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/da...minal-evidence-vote-leave-prosecution-agency/

https://www.sloughobserver.co.uk/ne...ed-prosecutors-vote-leave-scotland-yard-says/

Oh..

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Jaysus people - just because someone says they were influenced by Marx and other Marxist theoreticians - does not make you a Marxist. I was brought up a Catholic, it has enormously influenced my life - but it doesn't make me a Catholic now.

If McDonnell was a Marxist he would be a member of a revolutionary Marxist party - it is a prerequisite for anyone who regards themselves as a Marxist (unless you regard the LP as a Marxist party) - and by the way, Mao was never a Marxist, he was a populist nationalist who used left rhetoric and evolved into a Stalinist dictator (in the same way that saying you were influenced by Marx doesn't make you a Marxist, calling yourself a Marxist doesn't make you a Marxist).

As for the other guff - I disagree with the attitude of Corbyn and McDonnell towards Irish republicanism. But this type of smear demonstrates a false approach. The Tories spent the entire period of the Troubles in the North negotiating with the Provos - including agreeing ceasefires with them. But worse than that - the British state assassinated republicans during the shoot-to-kill period - the British state colluded with loyalist paramilitaries who engaged in sectarian assassinations in the North (including turning a blind eye to the murders carried out by the Shankill Butchers) - the British army shot and killed 11 innocent people in Ballymurphy in 1971 - the British army shot 28 unarmed civilians, killing 14 of them during Bloody Sunday in Derry in 1972 - and a British agent was one of those responsible for the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 that killed 34 people. And to demonstrate where I am coming from - I have a cousin who was caught up in the Dublin bombing in Talbot Street in 1974 (fortunately he only received minor injuries) and a friend of mine was shot three times in the back of the head and killed by a loyalist paramilitary in a sectarian shooting in Belfast in 1986.

Now - if you want to criticise McDonnell for what I would agree is a false representation of the nature of the provo campaign in the North then you should also acknowledge the antics of the Tories and the British state during the Troubles as well rather than just labeling McDonnell as someone 'who hates the UK'.

Last point - even the most ardent capitalist economists acknowledge that Marx's Capital was correct in its analysis of modern global capitalism. The one thing I would agree with is the quote from McDonnell that you give from 2018 - that one is spot on.

A thoughtful post.

Unfortunately the problem for me has always been how to persuade the electorate that supporting something a bit more left wing than the conservatives is something to vote for. Discussion of the definition of Marxism is an issue that is not conducive to this goal. Considering how much of one's beliefs are Marxist, if you are in the business of seeking election, is not conducive to getting elected.

To me the only way of nudging the tiller a bit leftward is to do it gently and, if people feel gain rather than pain, one can nudge a bit more. Mr Tony started such a process but forgot to keep nudging and, instead, became obsessed with the minutiae of retaining power.

The trouble with the current labour leadership is that they have failed to manage their public image, and have made it too easy for the right to pin a bit of paper saying 'kick me' on their collective arse. Consider, Mr Tony was extremely careful with his PR, and his ambitions were cautious (too cautious perhaps). Corbyn's plans are more radical so he needs to be even more careful, because if he frightens floating voters he won't win. 'No compromise with the electorate' is not a good strategy. So his efforts to fend off accusations of this that and the other have so far been unconvincing. I may be being kind here or harsh - depends on where you are standing; the only position of relevance to labour's electoral success is the so-far unpersuaded position.....

Anyway, softly softly, etc. The UK is better than it was when the likes of droopy rectum attended football matches and loomed over people in pubs, with his gaggle of all-white numpties chortling and guffawing at things they didn't and wouldn't and couldn't ever understand. Softly, softly....

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

A thoughtful post.

Unfortunately the problem for me has always been how to persuade the electorate that supporting something a bit more left wing than the conservatives is something to vote for. Discussion of the definition of Marxism is an issue that is not conducive to this goal. Considering how much of one's beliefs are Marxist, if you are in the business of seeking election, is not conducive to getting elected.

To me the only way of nudging the tiller a bit leftward is to do it gently and, if people feel gain rather than pain, one can nudge a bit more. Mr Tony started such a process but forgot to keep nudging and, instead, became obsessed with the minutiae of retaining power.

The trouble with the current labour leadership is that they have failed to manage their public image, and have made it too easy for the right to pin a bit of paper saying 'kick me' on their collective arse. Consider, Mr Tony was extremely careful with his PR, and his ambitions were cautious (too cautious perhaps). Corbyn's plans are more radical so he needs to be even more careful, because if he frightens floating voters he won't win. 'No compromise with the electorate' is not a good strategy. So his efforts to fend off accusations of this that and the other have so far been unconvincing. I may be being kind here or harsh - depends on where you are standing; the only position of relevance to labour's electoral success is the so-far unpersuaded position.....

Anyway, softly softly, etc. The UK is better than it was when the likes of droopy rectum attended football matches and loomed over people in pubs, with his gaggle of all-white numpties chortling and guffawing at things they didn't and wouldn't and couldn't ever understand. Softly, softly....

The current Labour leadership is a joke which will be put to rest at the ballot box, Corbyn ,McDonald and Abbot the three wise Monkeys totally unelectable to most reasonable folk
It's been emotional H
Regards
DH

 

[Hampster Gull]

A thoughtful post.

Unfortunately the problem for me has always been how to persuade the electorate that supporting something a bit more left wing than the conservatives is something to vote for. Discussion of the definition of Marxism is an issue that is not conducive to this goal. Considering how much of one's beliefs are Marxist, if you are in the business of seeking election, is not conducive to getting elected.

To me the only way of nudging the tiller a bit leftward is to do it gently and, if people feel gain rather than pain, one can nudge a bit more. Mr Tony started such a process but forgot to keep nudging and, instead, became obsessed with the minutiae of retaining power.

The trouble with the current labour leadership is that they have failed to manage their public image, and have made it too easy for the right to pin a bit of paper saying 'kick me' on their collective arse. Consider, Mr Tony was extremely careful with his PR, and his ambitions were cautious (too cautious perhaps). Corbyn's plans are more radical so he needs to be even more careful, because if he frightens floating voters he won't win. 'No compromise with the electorate' is not a good strategy. So his efforts to fend off accusations of this that and the other have so far been unconvincing. I may be being kind here or harsh - depends on where you are standing; the only position of relevance to labour's electoral success is the so-far unpersuaded position.....

Anyway, softly softly, etc. The UK is better than it was when the likes of droopy rectum attended football matches and loomed over people in pubs, with his gaggle of all-white numpties chortling and guffawing at things they didn't and wouldn't and couldn't ever understand. Softly, softly....

Yep, your way votes do go Labours way, then power and then real change. I don’t trust them one inch though but I’m not their target voter

 

[beorhthelm]

Last point - even the most ardent capitalist economists acknowledge that Marx's Capital was correct in its analysis of modern global capitalism.

do they really, how so?

 

[Hampster Gull]

A thoughtful post.

Unfortunately the problem for me has always been how to persuade the electorate that supporting something a bit more left wing than the conservatives is something to vote for. Discussion of the definition of Marxism is an issue that is not conducive to this goal. Considering how much of one's beliefs are Marxist, if you are in the business of seeking election, is not conducive to getting elected.

To me the only way of nudging the tiller a bit leftward is to do it gently and, if people feel gain rather than pain, one can nudge a bit more. Mr Tony started such a process but forgot to keep nudging and, instead, became obsessed with the minutiae of retaining power.

The trouble with the current labour leadership is that they have failed to manage their public image, and have made it too easy for the right to pin a bit of paper saying 'kick me' on their collective arse. Consider, Mr Tony was extremely careful with his PR, and his ambitions were cautious (too cautious perhaps). Corbyn's plans are more radical so he needs to be even more careful, because if he frightens floating voters he won't win. 'No compromise with the electorate' is not a good strategy. So his efforts to fend off accusations of this that and the other have so far been unconvincing. I may be being kind here or harsh - depends on where you are standing; the only position of relevance to labour's electoral success is the so-far unpersuaded position.....

Anyway, softly softly, etc. The UK is better than it was when the likes of droopy rectum attended football matches and loomed over people in pubs, with his gaggle of all-white numpties chortling and guffawing at things they didn't and wouldn't and couldn't ever understand. Softly, softly....

HWT for Labour PM

 

[clapham_gull]

do they really, how so?

Jolly Red Giant is technically correct. At the time of the financial crises very many conservative economists were quite happy to accept that the collapse was very similar to what Marx predicted.

What he obviously massively underestimated was the ability of Capitalism to "heal itself" and move on.

That doesn't however undermine his analysis of Capitalism. He was just a bit shit on what to replace it with.