[Politics] Brexit

[fanseagull]

So where do we go from here?

Everything in Parliament is in stasis. There’s no majority for anything except, bizarrely a continuation of the Tories’ inept, hapless government - thanks to the support of the DUP, MPs for the politics and culture of 1690, which says it all.

Corbyn didn't win his vote of no confidence: he didn't think he would, neither did anyone else. At this point we have reached the position set out and voted on at Labour conference, which is, in the absence of a general election, for Labour to call for a second referendum.

Despite doing hundreds of gigs on its territory and feeling thoroughly 'European' I have no love for the EU as a sociopolitical bloc for reasons expressed many times and understand why a majority voted to leave. I campaigned for No in 1975 though not quite old enough to vote. I didn’t support the second referendum and support a third one even less (though you could argue - best of three) �� We are a representative democracy and should have remained so.

But the prospect of months or years of deadlock, paralysis, the abjugation of meaningful civil legislative government and thus of the opportunity to oppose the Tories’ destructive policies leads me to the conclusion that we must look for a way out by finding a majority to go forward. The only extant majority, apart for the one which will keep these lemmings in power, is for a second referendum. I don’t want one, but I honestly can’t see an alternative.

I totally accept that some people will see that as an abject betrayal, and I can’t argue with that. But many more will breathe a sigh of relief that there is a way out. And when the most vociferous criers of ‘traitors’ are often those who would be content to see their fellow countrymen reduced to penury and countless businesses fold to bring about their 4% majority dream - and in extreme cases are actual working class people who attack picket lines - I think they should take a long, hard look at themselves too. If we’re going to throw the word ‘traitor’ about - and we shouldn’t, we really shouldn’t - it works both ways.

And although it is true that a minority of those who voted Leave are working class Labour supporters in northern towns, the majority are mainly elderly Tory voters from the shires. I saw the huge queue in our polling station on the day, turned to my wife and said ‘It’s a vote to leave’. I knew at that very moment.

The crucial thing is to find a way out of this mess. I don’t like it, but I can see no other. Most crucially, it is the policy supported at Labour conference. Corbyn has always said that he will listen to the membership, and, albeit with grave misgivings (less grave than those for any other outcome) I think he should. But the whole thing is obscene and Cameron and his cronies should be in the stocks for foisting it on us.

This......

 

[A1X]

The whole shambles has been handled appallingly, however when you're negotiating, all options have to be available, however unpalatable.

Taking one of the options off the table, before you start weakens your hand considerably.

Maybe but sometimes options are so patently terrible they shouldn't really be involved, and to do so makes you look ridiculous. Going into a bank and saying "one of the options on the table in this negotiation is I shoot everyone with this gun I have" doesn't tend to get anyone a better deal on their loan.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Once someone starts saying that Trump has done ANYTHING good you know they're either very stupid, a nut job or on a wind up.

It only takes a tiny bit of reading (of facts, not fake news) to find out that the "Trump has improved the economy" lie is just that.

I'm going for this being a wind up.

 

[btnbelle]

Ok so we let in nurses but on that criteria, European footballers are not needed.

Btw over 3000 European nurses have returned to their own countries since the Referendum because they no longer feel welcome here.

By the ability to choose, I take it you mean the Home Office, who like all the Civil Servants have been completely decimated (actually that means a 10th when it is more like 25% reduction) by austerity.

Of course footballers earn big bucks and pay tax. Not to mention the added benefits is sale of goods etc. I am not against all immigration.

Jobs will be created, some in the home office because they will be needed. Brexit will drive change and austerity will be over soon. (Rumour has it that it already is, but I am not someone who believes the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that one!)

 

[dingodan]

So where do we go from here?

Everything in Parliament is in stasis. There’s no majority for anything except, bizarrely a continuation of the Tories’ inept, hapless government - thanks to the support of the DUP, MPs for the politics and culture of 1690, which says it all.

Corbyn didn't win his vote of no confidence: he didn't think he would, neither did anyone else. At this point we have reached the position set out and voted on at Labour conference, which is, in the absence of a general election, for Labour to call for a second referendum.

Despite doing hundreds of gigs on its territory and feeling thoroughly 'European' I have no love for the EU as a sociopolitical bloc for reasons expressed many times and understand why a majority voted to leave. I campaigned for No in 1975 though not quite old enough to vote. I didn’t support the second referendum and support a third one even less (though you could argue - best of three) �� We are a representative democracy and should have remained so.

But the prospect of months or years of deadlock, paralysis, the abjugation of meaningful civil legislative government and thus of the opportunity to oppose the Tories’ destructive policies leads me to the conclusion that we must look for a way out by finding a majority to go forward. The only extant majority, apart for the one which will keep these lemmings in power, is for a second referendum. I don’t want one, but I honestly can’t see an alternative.

I totally accept that some people will see that as an abject betrayal, and I can’t argue with that. But many more will breathe a sigh of relief that there is a way out. And when the most vociferous criers of ‘traitors’ are often those who would be content to see their fellow countrymen reduced to penury and countless businesses fold to bring about their 4% majority dream - and in extreme cases are actual working class people who attack picket lines - I think they should take a long, hard look at themselves too. If we’re going to throw the word ‘traitor’ about - and we shouldn’t, we really shouldn’t - it works both ways.

And although it is true that a minority of those who voted Leave are working class Labour supporters in northern towns, the majority are mainly elderly Tory voters from the shires. I saw the huge queue in our polling station on the day, turned to my wife and said ‘It’s a vote to leave’. I knew at that very moment.

The crucial thing is to find a way out of this mess. I don’t like it, but I can see no other. Most crucially, it is the policy supported at Labour conference. Corbyn has always said that he will listen to the membership, and, albeit with grave misgivings (less grave than those for any other outcome) I think he should. But the whole thing is obscene and Cameron and his cronies should be in the stocks for foisting it on us.

A second vote isn't a "way out". If people vote to remain then we no longer have a "Brexit" problem. But we have a new one, perhaps a greater one. A crisis of confidence in democracy itself and the dividing political crack in this country becomes a fissure. If people vote to leave again then it's full circle and we are back where we started two years ago.

People don't want a "way out", they want the vote respected. Respecting the vote is more important than anything. The consequences of leaving the EU without a deal in place may be somewhat problematic, but the consequences of not respecting the vote are worse.

The real problem here is that the HoC find themselves, by a majority, in disagreement with the people. Only one side will have their will respected. The political class or the people. & I cannot overstate how severe a problem we would face if it turns out that we have a government for, of, and by, the politial class, rather than the people.

We can get through a Brexit without a deal on WTO terms. I'm not sure how we can get through a crisis of confidence in democracy itself.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Yes you are right. unfortunately we need to start living in the real world and look at boosting our market share.

We should not pat ourselves on the back for growth when it is simply earnt for providing for more people via immigration. The trick is to provide them with products in their homeland and bring their money back to our economy.

Yes, the brightest and best foreigners should stay where they are and concentrate on improving their own countries. Instead of coming over here and........

https://youtu.be/tKEsyIuTrO8

 

[Thunder Bolt]

September 2018: INEOS is to invest £60 million in the UK to expand production at its Grangemouth site
https://www.ineos.com/news/ineos-gr...to-expand-production-at-its-grangemouth-site/

I'm sure you will now tell me that any positive investment news is despite Brexit, and any negative investment news is because of it.

Sorry but you can't have it both ways.

The INEOS boss billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe thinks you can have it both ways. He's off to live in Monaco before Brexit happens.



Ratcliffe has quit Britain before. In 2010, Ineos moved to Switzerland, saving £400million in tax, when the UK Government refused to let them defer a VAT bill.


He founded Ineos in 1998 and prospered by buying up unwanted operations from BP and ICI. The company now have an annual turnover of £45billion.

They employ more than 18,500 staff at 181 sites in 22 countries and are the largest privately-owned company in the UK. Ratcliffe owns 60 per cent of it.

They made £2.2billion in profit last year.

When he was knighted in June, Labour MSP Neil Findlay said: “Ratcliffe’s knighthood has been awarded for ripping up the rights of the workforce who, let us never forget, are the ones who made his millions for him.”

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Of course footballers earn big bucks and pay tax. Not to mention the added benefits is sale of goods etc. I am not against all immigration.

Jobs will be created, some in the home office because they will be needed. Brexit will drive change and austerity will be over soon. (Rumour has it that it already is, but I am not someone who believes the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that one!)

And unicorns will fly over the rainbow.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Maybe but sometimes options are so patently terrible they shouldn't really be involved, and to do so makes you look ridiculous. Going into a bank and saying "one of the options on the table in this negotiation is I shoot everyone with this gun I have" doesn't tend to get anyone a better deal on their loan.

But remember the terrible option is terrible for both sides.

 

[dingodan]

The INEOS boss billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe thinks you can have it both ways. He's off to live in Monaco before Brexit happens.



Ratcliffe has quit Britain before. In 2010, Ineos moved to Switzerland, saving £400million in tax, when the UK Government refused to let them defer a VAT bill.


He founded Ineos in 1998 and prospered by buying up unwanted operations from BP and ICI. The company now have an annual turnover of £45billion.

They employ more than 18,500 staff at 181 sites in 22 countries and are the largest privately-owned company in the UK. Ratcliffe owns 60 per cent of it.

They made £2.2billion in profit last year.

When he was knighted in June, Labour MSP Neil Findlay said: “Ratcliffe’s knighthood has been awarded for ripping up the rights of the workforce who, let us never forget, are the ones who made his millions for him.”

That's not a counter argument. The UK is either perceived to be a good investment or not.

That has nothing to do with whether you consider the owner of a company a douchebag or not.

 

[ManOfSussex]

[tweet]1085845457505607680[/tweet]

 

[hans kraay fan club]

EU = uncontrolled immigration, anyone can come and steal jobs from low skilled British citizens which in turn lowers their wages. Low skilled migrants from the EU, either move their familes here, start a family here and claim benefits. While others send part of their wages and benefits back to their family at home. They cost us money by not paying as much tax, claiming benefits and being a drain on our public services. Unless they are high skilled and a great value to us, i.e. a nurse, we don't want them to arrive and stay. We can still have a scheme for people to come and work on the farms.

This poster is either a (ridiculously transparent) bot or the most extreme example of right-wing press brainwashing, I think I've ever seen.

30 years of Dacre propaganda writ large. If he could read your post, he'd be ******* himself stupid celebrating his success.

 

[Greavsey]

This poster is either a (ridiculously transparent) bot or the most extreme example of right-wing press brainwashing, I think I've ever seen.

30 years of Dacre propaganda writ large. If he could read your post, he'd be ******* himself stupid celebrating his success.

Yeah she's (?) hard work. I gave up about 10 pages of this thread ago trying to communicate. Nothing registers other than Daily Mail headlines..

 

[Baker lite]

You shouldn't believe every headline you see in The Daily Express.

Don’t read that arse wipe of a paper.


On our way.

 

[A1X]

A second vote isn't a "way out". If people vote to remain then we no longer have a "Brexit" problem. But we have a new one, perhaps a greater one. A crisis of confidence in democracy itself and the dividing political crack in this country becomes a fissure.

I keep seeing this but how can it be the case? If the people change their minds in a democratic referendum then surely that should be the antithesis of a crisis in democracy? Democracy allows people to change their minds.

What I think this is being lumped in with is people being unhappy that they didn't get their way. Unfortunately that's the case with any sort of public vote, but if Leave are unable to find the arguments to win another public vote then clearly it isn't something which should be pursued.

 

[Trufflehound]

I cannot overstate how severe a problem we would face if it turns out that we have a government for, of, and by, the politial class, rather than the people.

England (and latterly the UK) has had a parliament since 1215. Government has always been operated for, of, and by, the political class, rather than the people. Has it really been 804 years and some people still haven't grasped this?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

A second vote isn't a "way out".

It IS though.

If people vote to remain then we no longer have a "Brexit" problem. But we have a new one, perhaps a greater one. A crisis of confidence in democracy itself and the dividing political crack in this country becomes a fissure.

It is already a fissure.

If people vote to leave again then it's full circle and we are back where we started two years ago.

A second Leave vote would be hugely better informed, and thus far more respected.

People don't want a "way out", they want the vote respected

.

Who are you to talk for 'people'? Some 'people' DO want a way out. Only one way to find out how many...

Respecting the vote is more important than anything.

No it isn't. Not at ANY cost.

The consequences of leaving the EU without a deal in place may be somewhat problematic

,

Somewhat problematic? Idiot.

but the consequences of not respecting the vote are worse.

Threats of violence? Really, really strong letters to the Daily Mail? A few idiots refusing to cast their vote for UKIP in later elections? None of that is 'worse' than an economic catastrophe.

The real problem here is that the HoC find themselves, by a majority, in disagreement with the people

.

You don't know that. And there is only one way to find out.

Only one side will have their will respected. The political class or the people.

Again - utter tripe. There are many in the 'political class' pro-brexit, and many of 'the people' all for staying. Those people have the right to have their 'will' and future prosperity and freedoms respected too.

I cannot overstate how severe a problem we would face if it turns out that we have a government for, of, and by, the politial class, rather than the people.

You definitely can - and just have.

We can get through a Brexit without a deal on WTO terms.

Yes we can, albeit massively poorer. For no benefit.

I'm not sure how we can get through a crisis of confidence in democracy itself

there goes the overstating again.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That's not a counter argument. The UK is either perceived to be a good investment or not.

That has nothing to do with whether you consider the owner of a company a douchebag or not.

You said we cannot have it both ways. I've given you a perfect example of someone who is, and has been knighted for it by this government.

Brexit is a huge con.

 

[neilbard]

Utter nonsense.

Trying to use a catastrophic no deal as a negotiating tool, is the diplomatic equivalent of the 'but racist bigots would riot' argument against a second vote.

And Corbyn's reluctance for a second vote has nothing to do with losing votes, and everything to do with his personal anti-EU stance.

Hardly nonsense, Corbyn cannot afford to lose votes fact, I do agree that it is also due to his personal anti-EU stance.

I agree that no deal could be, as you say catastrophic, but all options should remain on the table at the moment until these morons can thrash out a solution.

Failing that it will revert back to the people.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I keep seeing this but how can it be the case? If the people change their minds in a democratic referendum then surely that should be the antithesis of a crisis in democracy? Democracy allows people to change their minds.

What I think this is being lumped in with is people being unhappy that they didn't get their way. Unfortunately that's the case with any sort of public vote, but if Leave are unable to find the arguments to win another public vote then clearly it isn't something which should be pursued.

It is just 'clever' shorthand for "I'm really scared we won't get our way, so I'm going to threaten that there'll be violence in the streets (by others, of course) if we don't get it".