[Misc] The NHS

[cunning fergus]

Please don't rise to it. I fell for it and it's just an attempt to turn this into another Brexit thread which it seems CL is banned from posting on.

Rise to what?

I have been perfectly reasonable and answered your questions honestly and directly. If that is why I have a ban from the Brexit and Trump threads then I am guilty.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The very fact that the EU website’s competition webpage details the restrictions on state control of industry tells you that in the EU have plenty to do with it. You support this I do not.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en.html

You know this well enough, this is why in our ideological outlook you are a Tory and I am a socialist.

It’s been a while since I schooled you in the EU and politics 1.01, thanks for the opportunity.

Wtf. That’s state aid. This is entirely different to nationalised industry. We’re you drunk when you posted this?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Please don't rise to it. I fell for it and it's just an attempt to turn this into another Brexit thread which it seems CL is banned from posting on.

Just seen this. Fair point. I can see what he’s doing. I’ll leave my replies to him here.

 

[The Clamp]

quasi-political rhetoric thats just part of the problem.

My argument is not a political one, it's a moral one. You wouldn't understand.

 

[cunning fergus]

Wtf. That’s state aid. This is entirely different to nationalised industry. We’re you drunk when you posted this?

Oh this is going to be fun.

So let’s start with say RBS in 2008........was that state aid or partial nationalisation?

As it is you are saying a) the 2 concepts are “entirely different” and b) nothing to do with the organs of EU. In which case you are of the understanding that the elected UK Govt at that time did exactly what it liked and completely disregarded the unelected EU Commission.

This is too easy HT.......too easy.

 

[Marshy]

I work for the NHS, its practically privatised already if you didn't know.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

like the Europeans seem to pay for their healthcare. mandatory insurance for basic, additional for additional and elective services. iirc France for example charge for fees for bed and food, fees for GP visits. we have broken the NHS ourselfs by insistence it's kept as originally planned, free at the point of use for all. which is really noble but bloody expensive. we must acknowledge some things fall outside that and have a insurance funded provision for others. that does not mean privatization necessarily, but if private providers can offer services efficiently let them. more important is to recognise additional funding, either several p on income tax or a new ring fenced healthcare insurance.

But as I have pointed out I have example of a very good state run health care system. Why can’t we follow this?

 

[beorhthelm]

But as I have pointed out I have example of a very good state run health care system. Why can’t we follow this?

Germany? are you confusing state run with private ownership. as i understand it Germany and many others have large parts of their healthcare owned by private groups, not the state.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Germany? are you confusing state run with private ownership. as i understand it Germany and many others have large parts of their healthcare owned by private groups, not the state.

You’ll have to be specific here because I don’t understand your question. The vast majority is controlled, priced and run by the state and the landers and over a 100 controlled not-for-profit “insurance” companies.

 

[brakespear]

. Look at the NHS now, it is at an all time low and offering less and less emergency services. People are dying because an ambulance/medic doesn't turn up. It is happening more and more. We are a 40s service in 2018. It needs business to run it, not politician appointments. It sucks to much of jobs for the boys.

Because, although there is obviously some wastage of finances, the NHS is being underfunded deliberately by the Government in an effort to make privatisation seem more appealing to the general public.

 

[beorhthelm]

You’ll have to be specific here because I don’t understand your question. The vast majority is controlled, priced and run by the state and the landers and over a 100 controlled not-for-profit “insurance” companies.

see here is maybe the problem that we dont acknowledge the definition of "private". i've been pulled up myself for overstating the meaning. it simply mean its in non-public ownership and control. so those not-for-profit insurers are private sector, just the same as likes of BUPA and Nuffield Trust are. people assume private means some nasty organisation out to rape the public purse, when there are many forms and we could develop a middle ground if the debate moved on that.

 

[drew]

Because, although there is obviously some wastage of finances, the NHS is being underfunded deliberately by the Government in an effort to make privatisation seem more appealing to the general public.

That is a preposterous suggestion. Nobody is going to believe that someone in government would sink to those levels to achieve their political goals?

https://whatwouldvirchowdo.files.wo...mocracy___an_agenda_for_a_new_model_party.pdf

https://whatwouldvirchowdo.wordpres...ok-and-yes-he-does-want-to-privatise-the-nhs/

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

see here is maybe the problem that we dont acknowledge the definition of "private". i've been pulled up myself for overstating the meaning. it simply mean its in non-public ownership and control. so those not-for-profit insurers are private sector, just the same as likes of BUPA and Nuffield Trust are. people assume private means some nasty organisation out to rape the public purse, when there are many forms and we could develop a middle ground if the debate moved on that.

No, they are not private: “130 public non-profit "sickness funds"

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

see here is maybe the problem that we dont acknowledge the definition of "private". i've been pulled up myself for overstating the meaning. it simply mean its in non-public ownership and control. so those not-for-profit insurers are private sector, just the same as likes of BUPA and Nuffield Trust are. people assume private means some nasty organisation out to rape the public purse, when there are many forms and we could develop a middle ground if the debate moved on that.

Their full title is Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung (GKV) (public health insurance organisations).

 

[Hastings gull]

Their full title is Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung (GKV) (public health insurance organisations).

I am rather confused. Gesetzlich doesn't mean public health, does it? It means lawful/statutory. I am sure that the German friends we had all said that it was compulsory to be insured -do they not have to pay into a Krankenkasse?
Out of interest, what happens in Germany to people unable and unwilling to contribute? Did I read somewhere that for eg the unemployed the local region then pays contributions on their behalf.

 

[GreersElbow]

In a free market the costs would go down, not up, so healthcare would be more affordable.

Speculative at best, nonsense at worst. No empirical evidence to support said statement.

For every good story about the NHS there seem to be more horror stories

Same can be said for U.S style healthcare, or any particular healthcare system.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I am rather confused. Gesetzlich doesn't mean public health, does it? It means lawful/statutory. I am sure that the German friends we had all said that it was compulsory to be insured -do they not have to pay into a Krankenkasse?
Out of interest, what happens in Germany to people unable and unwilling to contribute? Did I read somewhere that for eg the unemployed the local region then pays contributions on their behalf.

1) Yes you have to have health insurance.
3) If you have job then your health insurance will be taken out at source; think of this as like UK NI. You and your employer pay a fixed percentage which I believe is the same for everyone.
4) I believe if you are unemployed your health insurance premium becomes a monthly nominal amount which you continue to pay from your benefits.
5) You can elect to pay private health insurance with certain job statuses like freelance. Or if you earn over a certain amount you can leave the public system, stop paying into the public system and be private. Below this threshold you can still take private but your insurance payments will still be taken....like UK NI

 

[cunning fergus]

1) Yes you have to have health insurance.
3) If you have job then your health insurance will be taken out at source; think of this as like UK NI. You and your employer pay a fixed percentage which I believe is the same for everyone.
4) I believe if you are unemployed your health insurance premium becomes a monthly nominal amount which you continue to pay from your benefits.
5) You can elect to pay private health insurance with certain job statuses like freelance. Or if you earn over a certain amount you can leave the public system, stop paying into the public system and be private. Below this threshold you can still take private but your insurance payments will still be taken....like UK NI

What happened to point 2?

By the way don’t forget to let me know the difference between state aid and nationalisation, we have trod this ground many times before on the Brexit thread, so the nostalgia value is very important to me.

Don’t let me down you old Tory schwein.

 

[nicko31]

Boris trying to play politics with the NHS today, getting boring now. Whatever happens, this guy is only out for himself and must never be trusted with the top job

 

[Hastings gull]

1) Yes you have to have health insurance.
3) If you have job then your health insurance will be taken out at source; think of this as like UK NI. You and your employer pay a fixed percentage which I believe is the same for everyone.
4) I believe if you are unemployed your health insurance premium becomes a monthly nominal amount which you continue to pay from your benefits.
5) You can elect to pay private health insurance with certain job statuses like freelance. Or if you earn over a certain amount you can leave the public system, stop paying into the public system and be private. Below this threshold you can still take private but your insurance payments will still be taken....like UK NI

Thanks for your time with this.