General Election 2017

[Triggaaar]

Yes you're right. The point I was trying to make and failed to was that that Corp Tax would be where I would look when talking about austerity. George Osborne cut disability benefit to the tune of £4bn a year. I think it's almost obscene that when coming up with a way of making an extra £4bn someone would rather take from the very poorest and most vulnerable rather than a small increase to one of the lowest tax rates in Europe. Actually, scrub that - it IS obscene.

Agreed, which is why we need a decent opposition to keep the Tories moderate. The current Labour party means the Tories can do what the **** they like, which is a worry.

 

[Triggaaar]

Has anyone actually worked out how much these promises would cost

Yes, it's £50m. No need to worry, Diane Abbott has it all costed.

 

[spring hall convert]

isnt the point that Corbyn's flavour of socialism is closer to the Venezuelian, than the more more centrist models practiced on the continent?

In my mind, only to people seeking to disregard it (which to be totally fair is alot of people!) It's not apples with apples.

 

[Gwylan]

you're thinking of Portugal.

No, Germany

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...almost-all-of-its-power-from-renewable-energy

 

[HH Brighton]

Yeah real 1970's stuff from the Labour party. Mean while the Conservative party proving how progressive they are https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/862586029047500802 and https://twitter.com/Paul_D1963/status/862407002865225728

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

People trying to make this out as an extreme manifesto when the tories manifesto will include bringing back fox hunting, Grammar Schools and leaving the single market.

These are centre left policies that I believe most people would agree if it wasnt for the crucification of Corbyn by the Murdoch and Dacre led press.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

It was, which is why I said 'was'. Now that it's gone tits up and there are protests, the government are trying to cling to power.

So it's not a social democracy, and nothing like the system Corbyn is trying to invoke, so it's hardly an apt simile is it, and has little relevance to this discussion.

Venezuela's plight is just a modern example of socialism gone wrong. It's all a bit depressing, can someone give us an example of socialism going right please?

There have been plenty of examples in this very thread of the Nordic countries in which social democracy is working. Here's an honest question - why do you compare what Corbyn (and millions of progressives in the UK) is trying to achieve to that of a country on the other side of the world? Would it not be more sensible to compare ourselves to culturally similar countries such as The Netherlands, Sweden etc which are 30-100 miles away? They have proven liberal policies such as those proposed by Corbyn have actually produced the highest living standards the world has ever seen - why isn't this something you'd like to see emulated in the UK?

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Yes, it's £50m. No need to worry, Diane Abbott has it all costed.

30 million surely?

 

[Triggaaar]

Invoking Venuezuela when someone talks about socialism rather than the democratic, socially liberal socialists of Northern Europe is the right wing equivalent of the left invoking the USA rather than France when people talk about modernising the NHS.

Both are equally blinkered and as unhelpful as each other.

Please tell us the example of socialism you'd like us to follow.

 

[Triggaaar]

30 million surely?

Yes, 30 million and perhaps 250.

 

[spring hall convert]

Why even bother with a manifesto?

Because sometimes when parties try to break promises they have made in their manifesto, they are held to account like the Tories were when they tried to increase tax for self-employed recently.

Otherwise (and this is sort of what May is trying to get away with in this election if you ask me) you are just handing them a blank cheque to do exactly as they please. There's no politician I like that much.

 

[spring hall convert]

Please tell us the example of socialism you'd like us to follow.

And get involved in a Triggaaar debate. I really haven't got the energy today. Sorry.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Imagine a Hard Brexit combined with Corbyn's manifesto !?!

 

[Gwylan]

Because sometimes when parties try to break promises they have made in their manifesto, they are held to account like the Tories were when they tried to increase tax for self-employed recently.

The Lords, for example, won't vote against a bill supporting policies that was in a manifesto but can (and sometimes do) vote against a bill where the government has no mandate

 

[Machiavelli]

Please tell us the example of socialism you'd like us to follow.

I think talk of socialism and capitalism isn't particularly helpful, and tends to say more about those using the terms than the term itself. There are a wide variety of both capitalisms and socialisms.
As to which 'socialism' has worked, Britain 1945-79 was far more 'socialistic' (although I think it was better described as a mixed economy) and it worked one hell of a lot better than what we've had to endure subsequently, which I'll call neoliberal rather than just capitalism. Growth was much higher, productivity improved, unemployment was negligible, inequality reduced, socioeconomic mobility increased, working hours decreased, there were big expansions in all levels of education, the NHS introduced and consolidated, the welfare state flourished, and so on. I'm not advocating a return to the policies of this period, although there's nothing wrong with being inspired by them, on the basis that the world has moved on, and there are different challenges to address.

 

[Buzzer]

That may be A definition, but the Socialist Party of Great Britain has been consistent in its definition since forming in 1904.

My definition is good enough for The Socialist Party (the ones who used to be Militant) who describe socialism in the 21st century as: "A socialist economy would have to be a planned economy. This would involve bringing all of the big corporations, which control around 80% of the British economy, into democratic public ownership, under working-class control." ,,,and that's more or less how I described Venezuela.

Arguing that a socialist party isn't really socialist because what you call socialism is what most other people call Marxism is straight out the Life of Brian. Anyway, in the obituary to one of its founders, the SPGB is perfectly happy to have its members described as "Marxians and Revolutionaries".

Bottom line is it's not capitalism because capitalism works.

 

[Machiavelli]

And get involved in a Triggaaar debate. I really haven't got the energy today. Sorry.

Good point. Can I rescind that last post?

 

[Machiavelli]

My definition is good enough for The Socialist Party (the ones who used to be Militant) who describe socialism in the 21st century as: "A socialist economy would have to be a planned economy. This would involve bringing all of the big corporations, which control around 80% of the British economy, into democratic public ownership, under working-class control." ,,,and that's more or less how I described Venezuela.

Arguing that a socialist party isn't really socialist because what you call socialism is what most other people call Marxism is straight out the Life of Brian. Anyway, in the obituary to one of its founders, the SPGB is perfectly happy to have its members described as "Marxians and Revolutionaries".

Bottom line is it's not capitalism because capitalism works.

Your definition is utterly devoid of nuance, and its intention is merely to dismiss.
PS as with a Triggaaar debate, I'm not entirely interested in getting into a Buzzer debate either. Got other stuff to read.

 

[Triggaaar]

So it's not a social democracy

It was, and it went wrong when the money ran out. They were democratically elected and put their policies in place which has set the country on the course of financial ruin.

There have been plenty of examples in this very thread of the Nordic countries in which social democracy is working.

What? Norway, and the Netherlands? They're all capitalist economies.

Here's an honest question - why do you compare what Corbyn (and millions of progressives in the UK) is trying to achieve to that of a country on the other side of the world?

I don't think Corbyn would like to run the UK in a similar manor to Venezuela, but to be honest, I don't really know what he would want to do, we've not seen a manifesto from him yet. Venezuela is simply and example of proper socialism ****ing up a country. The European countries you're comparing us to are not examples of socialism in any way.

Would it not be more sensible to compare ourselves to culturally similar countries such as The Netherlands, Sweden etc which are 30-100 miles away? They have proven liberal policies such as those proposed by Corbyn have actually produced the highest living standards the world has ever seen - why isn't this something you'd like to see emulated in the UK?

Firstly, I don't think those countries have the world's highest living standards, but moving on...
Let's narrow down the policies you're referring to so that we can compare - which policies from those countries do you think have been great, and in what way is Corbyn proposing the same?

 

[Hastings gull]

you're thinking of Portugal.

and the healthcare insurance, we could have that here too but no wants to c

hange the NHS ownership or funding model.

Having experienced the German model, I have nothing but praise for it. I sensed this winter that the mood had changed somewhat and there might be more of an interest to look at another model. I could be wrong, but that was my gut feeling. But of course any move to look at anything that might work better and still means that everyone can access quality health care comes up against the politicos who insist on bringing politics into the health question, regardless.