US election (merged threads)

[symyjym]

Today I was listening to (black) former news anchor Leon Harris debating the election with Huffington Post head honco Howard Fineman.

Leon was apoplectic about the result, as he discussed it with middle aged white men of stature.

He was adamant that the America he experiences every day was finally there for all to see.
Making the point that 'white' America had given an inch and got Obama, so is now taking back a mile with trump.

Howard wasn't prepared to go down the race route, highlighting great swathes of people in the rust belt who now feel like 2nd class citizens, through unemployment and poor education.
Prompting Leon to point out that makes 'us' 3rd class.

One of his other lines was 'what if Obama had said any one negative statement, verbatim that Trump has made, would he have got elected?'


The predominantly black American sports, basketball and football, are already talking negatively about President elect Trump, seeing it as a continuation of the Black Lives Matter campaign.


The presenter Tony Kornheiser was amazed Trump received 30% of the Hispanic vote.
This was chalked up as 'I'm all right, Jack' voting, with a lot of people pulling the ladder up behind them.

Maybe some hispanics feel that illegal imigrant Mexicans are a problem to them too?

We will probably find that ex Muslims voted for him as well.

 

[Baldseagull]

We were offered a second rate av. It's no wonder hardly anyone voted.

It was a bit involved, but it would have allowed us to vote for the candidate we most wanted and also tactically to oppose the least desired candidate.
A big improvement on our current options.

 

[Soulman]

The problem is that we have been brought up to believe that Russia is the enemy, and the US are using Europe as a base in their psychological imaginary war with them. Does anyone really believe that Russia wants to invade Europe let alone nuke us?

Russia has been forced into the Middle East by the West because we destabilised a country which is a partner to it. For some stupid reason the west expected Assad to hand over his military, supplied by Russia, to Sunni Wahhabists. For the last 15 years the west has caused far more problems in the world than Russia has.

It’s not Russia flexing its muscle as a display of strength, it is in Syria as a duty, on principle, and within international law. Syria has been invaded by mercenaries from the very start of the so called civil war, later understood to be a failed coup plotted by the US, UK, France, Turkey and Sunni state backers. I don't see Russia as the problem in Syria.

I expect Trump to not engage with, or supply weapons to the Sunni Wahhabists rebels in Syria and will certainly not raise their false hopes which has motivated them so far.

At the end of the day the Middle East is on Russia’s doorstep, not the US’s, and it is on Europe’s doorstep too. Trump will align with Russia in Syria, and I believe Europe should do too, rather than warmonger from the sidelines as we have been for the last five years.

I think you have a slightly pessimistic view on the future and I don’t see any disadvantage with having closer ties with Russia economically and on Middle East policy.

Good post. Less chance of conflict under Trump than Clinton.

 

[nicko31]

I said something about this in another post.

Both Farage and Trump have utilised the disconnect between the electorate and their representatives to pursue their own agendas. In both cases scapegoats have been used to motivate popular support.

Neither have proven that they have the best interest of others as their motivation, instead they both appear to enjoy being the centre of attention and being seen as outsiders or rebels when they are nothing of the sort.

It's odd how there's criticism of the "elite". Yet here we have two incredibly wealthy privileged men wielding extraordinary amounts of influence...... sounds a bit like..... yeah the "elite".

100% agree, they are both so disingenuous

Trump is basically a salesman and bloody good one. Like so many good salesman they promise the earth and then don't deliver. Its all about him and his ego and he'll deliver on little of what he promises. American manufacturing won't return, there won't be a wall and the idea of 45% tariffs he's knows fully well is nonsense, but god it sounds good

And when it all fails you can always blame the Mexicans and the Muslims

 

[Half Time Pies]

The problem is that we have been brought up to believe that Russia is the enemy, and the US are using Europe as a base in their psychological imaginary war with them. Does anyone really believe that Russia wants to invade Europe let alone nuke us?

Russia has been forced into the Middle East by the West because we destabilised a country which is a partner to it. For some stupid reason the west expected Assad to hand over his military, supplied by Russia, to Sunni Wahhabists. For the last 15 years the west has caused far more problems in the world than Russia has.

It’s not Russia flexing its muscle as a display of strength, it is in Syria as a duty, on principle, and within international law. Syria has been invaded by mercenaries from the very start of the so called civil war, later understood to be a failed coup plotted by the US, UK, France, Turkey and Sunni state backers. I don't see Russia as the problem in Syria.

I expect Trump to not engage with, or supply weapons to the Sunni Wahhabists rebels in Syria and will certainly not raise their false hopes which has motivated them so far.

At the end of the day the Middle East is on Russia’s doorstep, not the US’s, and it is on Europe’s doorstep too. Trump will align with Russia in Syria, and I believe Europe should do too, rather than warmonger from the sidelines as we have been for the last five years.

I think you have a slightly pessimistic view on the future and I don’t see any disadvantage with having closer ties with Russia economically and on Middle East policy.

I am sorry but this is absolute 'pie in the sky'! No country is in the middle east for anything but its own self interest. Of course Russia doesn't want to invade Europe, it is however suspicious of European and Nato expansion which might threaten its own security, it does want to exert its influence in the world, flex its military muscle, its leaders - Putin and the political elite in Russia who are bankrolled by the many Russian oligarchs and mafia want to see their interests protected across the world, they also crucially want to stay in power. There is nothing like a common enemy and injection of nationalism to help a corrupt government stay in charge.

Take my word for it, there will be no comfy close cooperation with Russia as all parties have different agendas and most importantly are suspicious of each other. The sabre rattling will continue, Russia will continue to puff its aircraft carrier up and down the english channel, fly its bombers to the edge of various European countries airspace with their radio transponders switched off and as the US influence continues to wain it will continue to prod the cracks because this is how International power politics plays out.

Your view is completely unbalanced, taking sides in International Politics is impossible as nobody is squeaky clean, all sides are acting purely in their own self interests, nobody has the moral high ground.

 

[The_Viper]

Reminder - 14 million votes are yet to be counted. CNN is projecting Trump will win the popular vote.

http://edition.cnn.com/election/results/president

Oh and I know our system isn't the best either, but even if they used a system like the UK or Canada, Trump still wins.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Been talking with my fellow Brits in the office. Most of us could not vote but are in the process of becoming US citizens. There was as expected a mix of who we would have voted for if we could have. Some were outraged (including myself) that Trump got in but as a lot of posters have said – them’s the rules and he won fair and square. But one thing we had to admit was in reality it’s probably not going to make that much difference to us being middle income earners with adequate health insurance, and being in construction there will probably be increased expenditure on infrastructure projects.

An American colleague made the point that a lot of democrats get deeply involved with the social issues, which are important, but where were their protests when all the factories were closing in Detroit and all the manufacturing jobs were being outsourced to China. Sooner or later all the people in the rustbelt States were going to get severely pissed off and it just happened Trump was there when that happened.

All the people protesting over the result are just starting to look like sore losers and doing what they had said the Republican voters would have done if they had lost. They want him to fail, but when you live in America that’s a bit like wanting the plane to crash to prove the pilot’s an idiot. I’m hoping he will take advice and be prepared to compromise - I have to as I live here now. I was a bit more hopeful after his victory speech when he seemed more conciliatory and said he was going to represent all Americans. We shall see in the coming months.

 

[Easy 10]

He had not spilled as much bile back then.
I just think it is a scary world if you think it is ok to not protest about a person in power wanting to do some horrible things.

He's been spilling bile for years, it just got more coverage during the election campaign.

Only when they didn't get the result they wanted did some decide to take to the streets over it. They may not like Trump, he may be an abhorrent human being, but that's democracy folks. Vote him out in 4 years (if he doesn't get himself impeached first anyway).

 

[symyjym]

I am sorry but this is absolute 'pie in the sky'! No country is in the middle east for anything but its own self interest. Of course Russia doesn't want to invade Europe, it is however suspicious of European and Nato expansion which might threaten its own security, it does want to exert its influence in the world, flex its military muscle, its leaders - Putin and the political elite in Russia who are bankrolled by the many Russian oligarchs and mafia want to see their interests protected across the world, they also crucially want to stay in power. There is nothing like a common enemy and injection of nationalism to help a corrupt government stay in charge.

Take my word for it, there will be no comfy close cooperation with Russia over Syria as all parties have different agendas and most importantly are suspicious of each other. The sabre rattling will continue, Russia will continue to puff its aircraft carrier up and down the english channel, fly its bombers to the edge of various European countries airspace with their radio transponders switched off and as the US influence continues to wain it will continue to prod the cracks because this is how International power politics plays out.

Your view is completely unbalanced, taking sides in International Politics is impossible as nobody is squeaky clean, all sides are acting purely in their own self interests, nobody has the moral high ground.

You have clearly fallen for the warmongering propaganda and I can see that you support the Sunni Wahhabists and the plot to overthrow Assad. That's fine but I don't understand your thought process to why this is good?

By the way it is just a coincidence that Putin has actually taken my view rather than the other way around.

 

[AZ Gull]

Perhaps they should have had their marches and protests when he was selected as the Republian candidate to run for the Oval Office. I didn't see anyone out on the streets protesting then.

Only when they didn't get the result they wanted did some decide to take to the streets over it.

I'm afraid you are talking nonsense on this one Easy. There have been a LOT of protests against Trump throughout the entire campaign. Just to give an example of a couple in the State where I live:-

March 2016 - Protesters try to block access to Trump rally in Arizona

Aug 2016 - Hundreds protest Donald Trump's immigration speech in Phoenix

 

[drew]

The right of protest, and freedom of speech, are two of the main planks of democracy. Clinton got more votes, a pretty awful election process elected Trump.

Not much different to out system then. It is feasible to get the most votes but not win the most seats.

 

[pb21]

We were offered a second rate av. It's no wonder hardly anyone voted.

People didn't vote for AV because the establishment told them not too.

A vote for AV would have been a much bigger blow to the establishment than Brexit.

But voting for AV didn't offer the tantalising prospect of stopping foreigners coming here.

 

[drew]

The problem is that we have been brought up to believe that Russia is the enemy, and the US are using Europe as a base in their psychological imaginary war with them. Does anyone really believe that Russia wants to invade Europe let alone nuke us?

Russia has been forced into the Middle East by the West because we destabilised a country which is a partner to it. For some stupid reason the west expected Assad to hand over his military, supplied by Russia, to Sunni Wahhabists. For the last 15 years the west has caused far more problems in the world than Russia has.

It’s not Russia flexing its muscle as a display of strength, it is in Syria as a duty, on principle, and within international law. Syria has been invaded by mercenaries from the very start of the so called civil war, later understood to be a failed coup plotted by the US, UK, France, Turkey and Sunni state backers. I don't see Russia as the problem in Syria.

I expect Trump to not engage with, or supply weapons to the Sunni Wahhabists rebels in Syria and will certainly not raise their false hopes which has motivated them so far.

At the end of the day the Middle East is on Russia’s doorstep, not the US’s, and it is on Europe’s doorstep too. Trump will align with Russia in Syria, and I believe Europe should do too, rather than warmonger from the sidelines as we have been for the last five years.

I think you have a slightly pessimistic view on the future and I don’t see any disadvantage with having closer ties with Russia economically and on Middle East policy.

Neither side is shrouded in glory but let's be honest in that we should be far more suspicious of Russia than of USA. Russian activities in the former members of the soviet bloc leave little to be desired. Crimea, Georgia, the ongoing threat to the Baltic states. That coupled with a media controlled by the state makes me far more suspicious of Putin and his cronies.

As for Syria, the problem is Assad.

 

[Two Professors]

People didn't vote for AV because the establishment told them not too.

A vote for AV would have been a much bigger blow to the establishment than Brexit.

But voting for AV didn't offer the tantalising prospect of stopping foreigners coming here.

How many times do you bitter and twisted Losers have to be told.It is not stopping foreigners coming here,it's reducing the numbers to a manageable level that our infrastructure can cope with.

 

[pb21]

How many times do you bitter and twisted Losers have to be told.It is not stopping foreigners coming here,it's reducing the numbers to a manageable level that our infrastructure can cope with.

Ok, just for you, voting for AV didn't offer the tantalising prospect of reducing foreigners coming here.

 

[The Clamp]

David Icke predicted it would be the year of great change

Even a stuck clock tells the right time twice a day. Four times if you turn it upside down.

 

[portslade seagull]

Sure. But its probably the most irrelevantly POINTLESS protest I've ever witnessed. Everyone knows the process, no good whining about it after the event, its not going to change anything. I bet a large proportion of the protesters either didn't vote at all, or wasted it on a minority candidate in a protest vote.

All they can do is vote him out in 4 years. Grizzling in the streets won't achieve anything.

Sounds like the remainers over here

 

[Eeyore]

If all the Trump voters are racists then why did a significant percentage vote Democrat last time ?

America has questions to ask itself.

 

[Soulman]

 

[Half Time Pies]

You have clearly fallen for the warmongering propaganda and I can see that you support the Sunni Wahhabists and the plot to overthrow Assad. That's fine but I don't understand your thought process to why this is good?

By the way it is just a coincidence that Putin has actually taken my view rather than the other way around.

No not at all, I am not taking sides, the origins of the problems in the middle east go back years, parts of the Middle East have been carved up by colonial powers, artificial borders established, support for puppet dictators and monarchies, failed states. Syria and Assad is just part of this complex mess where the major powers have flitted between supporting difference sides depending on who best serves their particular purpose at a particular time. Whilst the US has over the past 70 years been a major cause of conflicts in the region Russia and the former Soviet Union also has a very checkered past.

Ultimately it is difficult to see any of the disputes in the region being fully solved by intervention from foreign military powers. Every time they get involved something even worse tends to crop up at some point further down the line.