[Politics] Brexit

[Soulman]

Out of interest what makes you think this of 17 million voters?

I stated "most", not fact, my opinion having spoken to fellow Leave voters. I suppose this answer will not satisfy you though.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

I stated "most", not fact, my opinion having spoken to fellow Leave voters. I suppose this answer will not satisfy you though.

I don't single out the two... I would include the Italians.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I stated "most", not fact, my opinion having spoken to fellow Leave voters. I suppose this answer will not satisfy you though.

I'm aware you said most. So, what makes you think most of the 17 million saw it as Germany and France?

 

[Soulman]

I'm aware you said most. So, what makes you think most of the 17 million saw it as Germany and France?

Okay. What makes me and many others think this is because we feel that Germany is the power house in the EU (though with Angies decision last year that may wane) and that France side with Germany, making those two top five economies the power.
Now i daresay you will not accept this view, but it is the opinion of many in the UK, many meaning those that voted Out.

 

[Soulman]

I don't single out the two... I would include the Italians.

Perhaps but i think many feel that the Italian economy is in trouble, although i can see that they would cosy up and support the Germany/France pairing.
I think many Leavers were annoyed at the way Germany treated Greece, again opinion.

 

[Soulman]

This from nearly 20 years ago.

Ring any bells.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Okay. What makes me and many others think this is because we feel that Germany is the power house in the EU (though with Angies decision last year that may wane) and that France side with Germany, making those two top five economies the power.
Now i daresay you will not accept this view, but it is the opinion of many in the UK, many meaning those that voted Out.

So some anecdotal evidence is the basis for you thinking most of the 17m believe it?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I think many Leavers were annoyed at the way Germany treated Greece, again opinion.

And what is this opinion based on? More tittle-tattle with your mates?

 

[Soulman]

And what is this opinion based on?

Based on letting the Greeks in the EU in the first place, based on the amount the German banks have lent the country to bail them out, and based on the interest rate and time scale that they have to pay it back. They do not stand a chance and will be in debt to Germany for the long and forseeable future.....this is what my opinion is based on, if it is ok with you.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Based on letting the Greeks in the EU in the first place, based on the amount the German banks have lent the country to bail them out, and based on the interest rate and time scale that they have to pay it back. They do not stand a chance and will be in debt to Germany for the long and forseeable future.....this is what my opinion is based on, if it is ok with you.

But you are stating your opinion. I'm asking how you think this is the view of "many leavers" ....as stated above.

 

[Soulman]

So some anecdotal evidence is the basis for you thinking most of the 17m believe it?

Just opinions based on what is seen and what is read, the same as you and others i suspect who said the UK would this and that.
An article from the Guardian, other articles similar although i know you will trash the sources, so this one seems to fit.

Happily, Germany does not rule Europe. Or does it? Munich-based sociologist Ulrich Beck argues in his new book that the eurozone catastrophe has given birth to a political monster: a German Europe. When, on 1 July this year, Croatia becomes a member, the European Union will contain 500 million people and be the largest market and trading bloc in the world.

"The new German power in Europe is not based as in former times on force," writes Beck in German Europe. Which is a consolation. "It has no need of weapons to impose its will on other states," he says. "It has no need to invade, and yet is ubiquitous."

His homeland's latest iron chancellor Angela Merkel rules Europe, imposing German values on feebler client nations, bailing out southern Europeans with their oversized public sectors, rampant tax evasion and long lunches. "In the countries most harshly affected by the crisis, many people think they are losers because the austerity policy pursued jointly by Berlin and Brussels deprives them of their means of livelihood – and also of their human dignity," argues Beck.
The worry is that Germany thinks of itself as a nation of strivers bankrolling a continent of skivers. "German money [is being] thrown away on the bankrupt Greeks," ran a headline in the tabloid Bild, while Focus magazine had a cover image of the Venus de Milo giving the finger to the world. "If Ireland and Greece sank into the sea tomorrow, Germany would be quietly relieved," says Simon Winder, publishing director at Penguin and author of Germania: A Personal History of Germans Ancient and Modern. "Germany today reminds me of the British Empire, burdened with non-lucrative colonies that it has to defend when all it's really bothered about is India. The problem for Germany is that it has no India just, as it were, lots of Sierra Leones."
But what are the Germans getting out of teaching allegedly slacker Europeans how to run their economies? For Beck, Germany's European dominance has given the nation a new sense of identity after decades of Nazi guilt, and provides liberation from what he calls the "never again syndrome" – never again a Holocaust, never again fascism, never again militarism. After the second world war and the Holocaust, he argues, Germany was in ruins morally and economically. Now, in both senses, it is back.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/31/is-germany-too-powerful-for-europe

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just opinions based on what is seen and what is read,

Interesting as I've not seen anything to suggest most 17 million voters believe either of the two points you've made. Would it be fair to say it's just your gut feeling?

 

[Soulman]

But you are stating your opinion. I'm asking how you think this is the view of "many leavers" ....as stated above.

As i stated this is the opinion of many Leavers that i have spoken to, many that have voiced concerns on blogs, boards etc.
My opinion, you dispute my opinion which i have now stated twice, i am allowed an opinion, and this is it.

 

[Soulman]

Interesting as I've not seen anything to suggest most 17 million voters believe either of the two points you've made. Would it be fair to say it's just your gut feeling?

Not my gut feeling, i would imagine (and this is my opinion) that most of the Leave voters on here would agree.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Not my gut feeling, i would imagine (and this is my opinion) that most of the Leave voters on here would agree.

I think, I imagine, I believe, my opinion etc etc. So, in summary, its unsubstantiated nonsense.

 

[Soulman]

I think, I imagine, I believe, my opinion etc etc. So, in summary, its unsubstantiated nonsense.

Think whatever you want, your opinion. Why keep asking the same question if you dont like/wont accept the answer i give.
This an opinion, from German sociologist Ulrich Beck, i suspect you do not agree with his opinion either....as i stated, i and many others do agree with Mr Beck's opinion, if that is ok with you though.

"Twenty years ago, Germany's economy was stagnating. Today, as the eurozone crisis deepens, this giant is keeping Europe afloat. But what does it want in return? Stuart Jeffries talks to German sociologist Ulrich Beck, who believes that his country has become a political monster "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/31/is-germany-too-powerful-for-europe

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Think whatever you want, your opinion. Why keep asking the same question if you dont like/wont accept the answer i give.
This an opinion, from German sociologist Ulrich Beck, i suspect you do not agree with his opinion either....as i stated, i and many others do agree with Mr Beck's opinion, if that is ok with you though.

"Twenty years ago, Germany's economy was stagnating. Today, as the eurozone crisis deepens, this giant is keeping Europe afloat. But what does it want in return? Stuart Jeffries talks to German sociologist Ulrich Beck, who believes that his country has become a political monster "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/31/is-germany-too-powerful-for-europe

I'm not disputing your view, this professors view, or your mates view. What I am asking is how you have made the leap from their view to it being the view of most of the 17m voters as you stated. Do you not understand?

 

[Soulman]

I'm not disputing your view, this professors view, or your mates view. What I am asking is how you have made the leap from their view to it being the view of most of the 17m voters as you stated. Do you not understand?

I answered this same question a few posts back.

"As i stated this is the opinion of many Leavers that i have spoken to, many that have voiced concerns on blogs, boards etc.
My opinion, you dispute my opinion which i have now stated twice, i am allowed an opinion, and this is it".


While Britain’s Leave campaigners already think Germany is too powerful, German leaders fear, from some European perspectives, that would become a self-fulfilling prophecy, if the British exit. As the main eurozone creditor, Germany indeed can call many of the shots, and has done so when it comes to the handling of the euro crisis and imposing unpopular austerity on southern Europe’s debtor nations.
http://www.voanews.com/a/brexit-germany-economy/3335345.html

Someone mentioned Italy. They also worry
For Italians, one of the main gripes about Brussels are the economic austerity policies that the country has had to endure, and a perception that they are being dictated to by fiscally stronger countries, in particular Germany.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...r-brexit-vote-could-herald-eu-collapse-unles/

 

[JC Footy Genius]

That must have taken you as long to put together as it took me to walk up Wolstenbury Hill this afternoon but I am afraid you are all missing my point. Why you've put together a raft of links highlighting that the EU will be tough and vitriolic negotiating opponents for a Brexitting UK I have no idea. Unlike the many Leavers who said the EU would be a pussy if we left I always thought the organisation would come after us. Never said otherwise. The simple point I was making is that the Europhobes of UKIP and the tabloids have invariably tried to present the UK's membership of the Union as being a case of the United Kingdom fighting the other 27. One against the rest. It's an old propaganda stunt for cranking up the troops.

5 minute walk? A raft of links showing that my .."I thought it was a Remain campaign narrative, often repeated on NSC that it will be us against the rest as the mighty EU seeks to punish us to deter further splitters " .. comments were broadly accurate and not wrong as you suggested.

I can't remember any leavers saying the EU would be a pussy or roll over but many did say (including me) that they would be unlikely to be as vindictive as suggested by the Remain side/supporters.

Agree that UKIP and elements of the press have continually portrayed Brussels as the bad guys which although simplistic and overblown does perhaps reflect the underlying tension between the UK's vision of where the EU should be heading (more trade focused ,less centralisation) and how many on the continent and the Commission view the future ... ever closer political union/diminishing power of nation states/federalisation.

Btw out of the two misleading strategies suggesting the nasty EU is completely against us as a reason to leave or suggesting the EU will punish us if we do I think we both know the first was likely to be more successful. The UK population don't respond well to threats.

 

[dingodan]

glad you provided the link and not just the quote,gives a chance to read the whole discussion between you and [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] ,puts it into context.
its clear he didnt believe the whole 350m was to be spent entirely on The NHS at all like you claim but the money could be used for priorities (plural)
He even clarifies it for you a few posts later.

"No, I think you have erected a strawman. There is a difference between saying that we can save 350M per week, and that will free up resources for our priorities like the NHS, and saying that we can save 350M which we will spend entirely on the NHS. Gove and Borris couldn't promise to spend anything on the NHS, it's not in their remit. They are saying that you (we) will have the money available to spend on things we want to. Probably, for a lot of people, the first suggestion would be the NHS (which needs more money). You know the difference between what was suggested and what you are saying was suggested, and you know it. I think you are being a little misleading and dishonest yourself."

you must have forgotten that part,maybe because he clocked your strawman?

Thanks.