[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

We lost against Newscastle, can we ask for re-match and will we get one?

This is not football, but if you want to go there, where we are now is the moment after the referee has awarded a penalty, (for what most people have seen on replay was a dive). Our players are in the refs ear, telling him to consult the linesman, yours are asking him if they can get on with taking the kick.

 

[Monkey Man]

The problem is that those of us who voted Remain know exactly what we voted for. So no problem there.

But the Leave campaign is very hard to crystallize. It's a very simple thing to leave the EU - you just sign a bit of paper. The complication is the terms you leave on, and the changes you choose to make to the way the country is run after that. And there is an absolutely HUGE spectrum of possibilities to weigh up, many of which are out of our hands because they rely on decisions of other countries (and certain economic conditions, and many other things).

That's why I don't agree that "the country has spoken". Whatever deal is done, and however Brexit pans out, the results are likely to be unpalatable to millions of Leave voters because that's not what they thought they were voting for. Even if the majority of them ARE satisfied (which would still put them in the minority of the electorate).

 

[The Clamp]

The problem is that those of us who voted Remain know exactly what we voted for. So no problem there.

But the Leave campaign is very hard to crystallize. It's a very simple thing to leave the EU - you just sign a bit of paper. The complication is the terms you leave on, and the changes you choose to make to the way the country is run after that. And there is an absolutely HUGE spectrum of possibilities to weigh up, many of which are out of our hands because they rely on decisions of other countries (and certain economic conditions, and many other things).

That's why I don't agree that "the country has spoken". Whatever deal is done, and however Brexit pans out, the results are likely to be unpalatable to millions of Leave voters because that's not what they thought they were voting for. Even if the majority of them ARE satisfied (which would still put them in the minority of the electorate).

Very well put.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

it probably wouldnt overstretch if the number was only ever going to be 3 or 4 thousand.
But it isnt only ever going to be that number

That is the specific number agreed by the British government for this specific situation.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I and i suspect many others with my views, have no problem with 3 or 4 thousand, as long as it is not on top of the massive figures we let in last year.
Surely we can cut down the amount of immigration to a sensible level and MAKE sure that those in need such as genuine refugees are let in among the sensible numbers.

To be honest I am not aware that we opened our doors to any Syrian warzone refugees at all before this policy was introduced.

Pastifarian said I might be the odd one out if I thought the tiny numbers involved here were too small. We still live in a small-c Christian country and I would be very sad if that was the case.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Some people are peacefully protesting about wanting to stay in The EU. Some people are peacefully protesting about wanting Article 50 invoked now. Each to their own, but I thought the right to protest was a cornerstone of our democracy, even if you don't share the same view as the protesters?

Glad to see some common sense exists round here, rather than the 'you will think what you are told' culture that others want to adopt.

 

[The Clamp]

Why don't all the Leave voters go and live in non EU countries and the space created can be used to home refugees who might actually appreciate Britain, unlike Leavers who have done nothing but bemoan the country for decades?

I urge people who bleat on about democracy to watch this documentary which demonstrates how democracy can be used for bad as well as good. I am very much for democracy but am measured enough to understand it's limits and what can go wrong when people cling to a "democratic" decision purely on principle and even when all common sense tells us it's wrong.

Anyway, check it out, it's an eye opener.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKR32_3Yx08

 

[JC Footy Genius]

There are a few assumptions you and your link have made that are wrong.
Firstly, the author in your link assumes that because British MEP's voted against something, that something is not in Britains interests. Mr Farage and his band of UKIP MEP's have opposed a lot more policies than the Liberals have, unsurprisingly.
Secondly, the counter balance does not come from having our MEP's there, it comes from having everybodys MEP there, and a body that sets an agenda that is not concerned with individual nations self interests, but for what is best for all member nations. This means that we have had to adopt some policies in areas such as employment rights, and the environment that are beneficial for us, but our Government was opposed to.
Each Nation of the EU still has to find ways to be competitive, but the EU prevents them cutting corners on the environment and workers rights to some extent.
We may get some loss of identity as Brits, as a by product of trying to create greater equality throughout Europe, a bit like we all feel a bit less manly now than we did in the seventies on account of women having greater equality, we are still men though, even if the little lady does earn as much as I do and can top up the oil in the car. We will still be Brits when our favourite footballers are Spanish, our favourite beverage is German, and our President is French

I was responding to a point about democratic legitimacy and how our MEP's supposedly balance flaws in our system. The link was provided to show how this isn't necessarily the case. Every last one of them could vote for or against something and be easily outvoted/ignored.

I also prefer a British interests criteria related to how a majority of our elected representatives vote than just your subjective opinion of what may or may not be good for the country. Having a counterbalance of everyone's MEP's doesn't appeal despite your rosy description of European politicians working free from concerns about national interest and just for the good of all (a little naive!?). In truth large voting blocks are cobbled together with many disparate and some unsavoury political groups all manoeuvring to get the best deal for their individual country/cause. After much wheeling and dealing a compromise may emerge which if we are lucky may in some cases be vaguely related to our initial position/national interest but if not never mind.

It appears that quite a few remain supporters mainly of a left of centre/liberal persuasion were motivated by this notion of the EU reigning in the supposed worst excesses of a UK (Tory) government they didn't like/vote for. Have they I wonder ever considered what happens when the EU's definition of what's best for all diverges from their particular world view. See Greece. Enforced austerity and naff all equality.

Vote Leave! .... ooops old habits.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Why don't all the Leave voters go and live in non EU countries and the space created can be used to home refugees who might actually appreciate Britain, unlike Leavers who have done nothing but bemoan the country for decades?

I urge people who bleat on about democracy to watch this documentary which demonstrates how democracy can be used for bad as well as good. I am very much for democracy but am measured enough to understand it's limits and what can go wrong when people cling to a "democratic" decision purely on principle and even when all common sense tells us it's wrong.

Anyway, check it out, it's an eye opener.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKR32_3Yx08

I really enjoyed reading your post.
You want me to leave the country because I voted a different way to you in the referendum.
You think I have been moaning about the country for decades despite not having met me.
You believe in democracy unless it delivers a result with which you disagree.

Hope you don't mind me saying but the logic of your arguments does seem a little messy...

 

[The Clamp]

I really enjoyed reading your post.
You want me to leave the country because I voted a different way to you in the referendum.
You think I have been moaning about the country for decades despite not having met me.
You believe in democracy unless it delivers a result with which you disagree.

Hope you don't mind me saying but the logic of your arguments does seem a little messy...

I didn't think you'd understand it.
We can all see that a certain handful of brexiteers aren't entirely convinced they voted the right way or they wouldn't be on here defending themselves every five minutes and policing posts for people who say anything against Brexit. I'm starting to think they have a shift system in place. Classic case of thou doth protest too much.

 

[beorhthelm]

The problem is that those of us who voted Remain know exactly what we voted for. So no problem there.

really? i dont believe this, just as there are a range of views and reasons to leave, there's a range to remain. there are the fervent federalists that are fully supportive of the goals of the "European Project", those that support being involved in the EU but would like some powers returned or other changes (probably the majority), those that weren't really sure either way and just felt better to stay in, etc. there was no option on the ballot for "remain with conditions", as was essentially what Cameron was pitching with his EU Deal. so lets not kid ourselfs there is a neat cohesive bloc on one side.

 

[Baldseagull]

I was responding to a point about democratic legitimacy and how our MEP's supposedly balance flaws in our system. The link was provided to show how this isn't necessarily the case. Every last one of them could vote for or against something and be easily outvoted/ignored.

I also prefer a British interests criteria related to how a majority of our elected representatives vote than just your subjective opinion of what may or may not be good for the country. Having a counterbalance of everyone's MEP's doesn't appeal despite your rosy description of European politicians working free from concerns about national interest and just for the good of all (a little naive!?). In truth large voting blocks are cobbled together with many disparate and some unsavoury political groups all manoeuvring to get the best deal for their individual country/cause. After much wheeling and dealing a compromise may emerge which if we are lucky may in some cases be vaguely related to our initial position/national interest but if not never mind.

It appears that quite a few remain supporters mainly of a left of centre/liberal persuasion were motivated by this notion of the EU reigning in the supposed worst excesses of a UK (Tory) government they didn't like/vote for. Have they I wonder ever considered what happens when the EU's definition of what's best for all diverges from their particular world view. See Greece. Enforced austerity and naff all equality.

Vote Leave! .... ooops old habits.

Well, with our MEP's we do at least usually get some representation unless we voted for a party that next to no one else did.

It is not subjective to say we are better off breathing cleaner air, swimming in cleaner seas or not being pushed to work excessive hours. It is however quite subjective to say that because a majority of UK MEP's (UKIP being the majority of UK MEP's) voted against something, that something is not in UK interests.
The layer at the top not elected by the people is the part that sets the agenda, this is the part that is not supposed to have national self interests at heart, of course the Council and the MEP's do have National self interests more in mind, but they do not set the agenda.
Quite a bit of what the EU considers is best for all I do not agree with, just as there are many acts of UK parliament that I think are not good for us. But I do not want to leave the UK and become The Republic of Sussex.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I didn't think you'd understand it.
We can all see that a certain handful of brexiteers aren't entirely convinced they voted the right way or they wouldn't be on here defending themselves every five minutes and policing posts for people who say anything against Brexit. I'm starting to think they have a shift system in place. Classic case of thou doth protest too much.

View attachment 77769

The arguments for and against Brexit exist on many levels whether they be intellectual, emotional, cultural, idealistic. What it all comes down to is an exercise of choice. I haven't contributed to this thread for a few months because the arguments on both sides are becoming very tired and the issues are often forgotten in pursuit of personal agenda ie a typical social media discussion. I also became tired of sweeping generalizations of abuse post referendum result calling my intellect and motives into question. I say 'my' because when making a sweeping generalization one loses the argument because it has become non specific. Your post tempted me back more out of amusement than anything as I pictured the voting booth behind which was a door marked deportation which I was meekly supposed to enter after marking my cross in the 'wrong' box.
If I can achieve anything in this discussion I would be very happy to surprise you with the knowledge that this particular 'Brexiter' is a well adjusted, positive, happy, inclusive chap who just happens to disagree with you.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

This is not football, but if you want to go there, where we are now is the moment after the referee has awarded a penalty, (for what most people have seen on replay was a dive). Our players are in the refs ear, telling him to consult the linesman, yours are asking him if they can get on with taking the kick.

No we aren't. The kick has been taken, the goal awarded, the final whistle blown, and yet still the losing side won't let it go.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The problem is that those of us who voted Remain know exactly what we voted for. So no problem there.

The remain voters certainly do not know what they have voted for. What a ridiculous comment. You, I, nor anyone else for that matters has knowledge of what the EU will look like. The EU states can't even agree.

Remain voters had an idea of what they THOUGHT they were voting for, as did leave.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

really? i dont believe this, just as there are a range of views and reasons to leave, there's a range to remain. there are the fervent federalists that are fully supportive of the goals of the "European Project", those that support being involved in the EU but would like some powers returned or other changes (probably the majority), those that weren't really sure either way and just felt better to stay in, etc. there was no option on the ballot for "remain with conditions", as was essentially what Cameron was pitching with his EU Deal. so lets not kid ourselfs there is a neat cohesive bloc on one side.

But surely all political groups are broad churches. I used to belong to a political party but no longer do because there isn't one I absolutely support. I still vote though, every time. If I voted Labour I could be supporting the party of Diane Abbott or the one of Dan Jarvis. The Tories range from rightwing neo-kippers such as John Redwood to gentle centrists such as Ken Clarke. Similarly, the politicians driving or supporting the EU range from federalists to free traders. Those against it include obsessives who are prepared to pull out of Europol to those who don't.

So the reasons for different people voting for anyone or anything will always vary. What made the Brexit vote unusual was that huge numbers of people seemed to vote Leave in order to protest about things that weren't directly connected to our membership of the EU. People didn't vote Remain for similar reasons.

In hindsight it would have been better to have had three questions on the ballot paper:

Remain
Leave
Feeling peed off about how my life is going

(I don't believe that the EU is in crisis but it is in a state of flux. It's future direction of travel isn't certain. The federalists are still there and there remain projects guaranteed to get the British tabloids going. (European army?) The interesting tendency at the moment is the one driven by the Visegrad members, whose growing notions of national sovereignty are similar to those held by many in Britain. The UK could and probably would have been a leader of that thinking, supported by growing numbers across the EU. Our international influence would have started to grow, instead of declining as it has since the end of the war.)

 

[ManOfSussex]

No we aren't. The kick has been taken, the goal awarded, the final whistle blown, and yet still the losing side won't let it go.

I accept the result and the fact the game is over, as do most 'remain' voters. The problem I have is I don't know if it was just 3 points lost, a replay next week, or just out of a cup of some sort, as I don't know what the competition was, relegation and disaster and hope the we've got money to pay for the floodlights next week, promotion and untold riches, or just carry on as before because things wont be a great deal different despite this result. The other thing is I support both teams, as they're actually playing for the same club.

 

[beorhthelm]

But surely all political groups are broad churches.

absolutely, and most of the time people vote for whats the nearest match to their views, not necessarily a candidate or party that they support 100% (i'd be surprised if you can find any MP that honestly fully supports every item in thier parties manifesto, except maybe Lucas.). and so it is with the referendum. so why do remainers maintain that they are a unified single voice while leavers are a ragtag of different views?

So the reasons for different people voting for anyone or anything will always vary. What made the Brexit vote unusual was that huge numbers of people seemed to vote Leave in order to protest about things that weren't directly connected to our membership of the EU. People didn't vote Remain for similar reasons.

see? its denial that you think people voted for reasons unrelated to membership of the EU; they may be poor reasons, but in their view they were related to EU. Remain ran a poor campaign that didnt enough convince people what was supposed to be positive about EU, that's the short of it.

 

[Soulman]

Why don't all the Leave voters go and live in non EU countries and the space created can be used to home refugees who might actually appreciate Britain, unlike Leavers who have done nothing but bemoan the country for decades?

I urge people who bleat on about democracy to watch this documentary which demonstrates how democracy can be used for bad as well as good. I am very much for democracy but am measured enough to understand it's limits and what can go wrong when people cling to a "democratic" decision purely on principle and even when all common sense tells us it's wrong.

Anyway, check it out, it's an eye opener.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKR32_3Yx08

How about all the pro EU voters move to countries that are in the EU, seeing as the majority voted out.

 

[The Clamp]

How about all the pro EU voters move to countries that are in the EU, seeing as the majority voted out.

I think some will.