[Politics] Brexit

[Neville's Breakfast]

To be perfectly honest NB, I don't think immigration will change much whether we Remain or Leave. I think it is a red herring. We haven't changed our immigration controls for decades. The Tories came in in 2010 with a manifesto to tackle immigration, and they haven't, and of course we could have tackled immigration from outside the EU.

Anyone voting Leave thinking that we'll suddenly stop immigration, that these numbers will suddenly start to shrink I believe is mistaken.

Sadly, true.
The horse has long since bolted and the damage done. We have all been sold on the idea that an ever rising population is good for us and for the economy. It doesn't matter that we have to build a new home every 7 minutes for the next 20 years to keep pace. It doesn't matter that planning permission ( once, almost impossible ) is now granted on every green field site available. It doesn't matter that schools, hospitals, doctors waiting rooms, NHS dentists and prisons are bursting at the seams. Its great for big business. Readily available cheap labour. Thousands being employed on or around the minimum wage.
Keep them coming, in their hundreds of thousands. Its creating this vibrant economy that Mr Darling has just alluded to.

If true then I would agree with the conclusion that we may as well vote Remain. Perhaps though there will be new thinking on a humane and realistic immigration policy. I think at the very least the concept of unlimited immigration has to change. Being optimistic I think that we have not had a Government willing to tackle the issue and the Tory 2010 commitment was just spin.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's the rich that want us in.......an endless supply of cheap labour courtesy of EU wide labour market.

As I said, pro EU Labour MPs in particular are only now seeing the light and calling for reform, in short admissions that they got it wrong.......again.

It's not the working class that is the problem........it's the liars that treated them with contempt for the last 20 years.

Leaving the EU, with power handed to Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan-Smith, Chris Grayling and Priti Patel...oh yeah, they're going to be on the side of the working class and not the rich aren't they! That is what will happen. Cameron will resign, and we'll have 4 years with these 4 in charge of the country, as far right a government we've had going back half century or more!

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Leaving the EU, with power handed to Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan-Smith, Chris Grayling and Priti Patel...oh yeah, they're going to be on the side of the working class and not the rich aren't they! That is what will happen. Cameron will resign, and we'll have 4 years with these 4 in charge of the country, as far right a government we've had going back half century or more!

Amazing isn't it.

(Ps, you missed out millionaire public school-educated, former stockbroker, man of the people, Nigel Farage. )

 

[cunning fergus]

Is that what this is about for you? You want to give someone a bloody nose?

You do realise that the rich won't be affected half as much as you think. The rich always look after themselves. It'll be the poor that bear the brunt.

It's the rich that want us in.......an endless supply of cheap labour courtesy of EU wide labour market.

As I said, pro EU Labour MPs in particular are only now seeing the light and calling for reform, in short admissions that they got it wrong.......again.

It's not the working class that is the problem........it's the liars that treated them with contempt for the last 20 years.

 

[Gwylan]

(Ps, you missed out millionaire public school-educated, former stockbroker, man of the people, Nigel Farage. )

He's not an MP so he couldn't be part of government. Of course, he could be elevated to the peerage and get into parliament that way but surely someone who has railed for so long against the undemocratic, unelected ways of the EU would scarcely opt to be part of an undemocratic, unelected assembly. Why, the man would be a massive hypocrite to do that: surely it would be the actions of someone with no principles whatsoever

 

[pb21]

With todays ‘flotilla’ Mexican stand-off the referendum debate has completely blurred the lines between real-life and satire. Are we all unwitting extras in an episode of ‘The thick of it’ or something?

 

[Bold Seagull]

With todays ‘flotilla’ Mexican stand-off the referendum debate has completely blurred the lines between real-life and satire. Are we all unwitting extras in an episode of ‘The thick of it’ or something?

Ha ha, well played Bob.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

He's not an MP so he couldn't be part of government. Of course, he could be elevated to the peerage and get into parliament that way but surely someone who has railed for so long against the undemocratic, unelected ways of the EU would scarcely opt to be part of an undemocratic, unelected assembly. Why, the man would be a massive hypocrite to do that: surely it would be the actions of someone with no principles whatsoever

This is a man that hates the EU but has trousered hundreds of thousands of pounds in EU allowances / expenses.
A man that is on the Thames today in support of the UK Fishermen, yet as a member of the EU Fisheries committee, which shapes their industry, only turned up for one of 38 meetings.
A man who rallies against EU immigrants taking 'our jobs' yet pays his own German wife a £200k salary from the public purse.

No principles? You decide.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Science is one area. We get far more out of the EU in science funding than we put in - over €3 billion more. Of course we could increase funding to alleviate that in the event of a brexit, but there's no guarantee we would, especially if we have an economic downturn.

Not to mention that the way EU science grants work means that we'd miss out on having many of Europe's top quality scientists coming over here and contributing vital research to the UK.

It's no surprise that a large majority of UK scientists are in favour of remain - I can tell you that many are extremely worried about the state of academic science should we leave.

Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk

This is true. However it is up to the UK, if we are independent, where we aim funding.

No, you're not waiting for people to explain, you're not listening. A lot of time has been spent pointing out all the good the EU does, and if you want a refresher there are several threads running to over 100 pages that are full of it. But every point is met with a brick wall, you Leavers don't want to know, don't want to debate, can't bring yourself to acknowledge anything good in the EU or that couldn't be done better outside the EU. Honestly, ts frustrating.

Actually, you have a point. I was too vague, there are moments in this thread and others where some positives or perceived positives are mentioned. I just do not necessarily agree with them.

I am speaking about the remain campaign. Along with the leave campaign, they have been so thoroughly negative.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

 

[Swillis]

Amazing isn't it.

(Ps, you missed out millionaire public school-educated, former stockbroker, man of the people, Nigel Farage. )

I was in the same school as Farage.






I had the contract to decorate parts of it.

 

[East Preston Gull]

I am amazed at the number of student age kids who think we are leaving Europe as apposed to a European Union. They are convinced that we won't be able to travel abroad at all, no mobile phone usage in Europe and will no longer be affiliated to any European sporting event. What are they being taught.
And in the spirit of BBC impartiality I am sure there are those students who are clued in.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

[Seagull27]

This is true. However it is up to the UK, if we are independent, where we aim funding.

With science being such an international industry though I'm not sure that's such a good thing. Firstly it relies on the UK government to match the funding we currently receive and I don't have confidence in any of our current political parties to make that investment.

Secondly, where funding comes from international bodies there is more drive to fund research on wider issues such as fighting climate change and antibiotic resistance. These things require joint effort between nations, in both scientific research and policy change. We are more likely to have this, in my opinion, inside the EU.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

With science being such an international industry though I'm not sure that's such a good thing. Firstly it relies on the UK government to match the funding we currently receive and I don't have confidence in any of our current political parties to make that investment.

Secondly, where funding comes from international bodies there is more drive to fund research on wider issues such as fighting climate change and antibiotic resistance. These things require joint effort between nations, in both scientific research and policy change. We are more likely to have this, in my opinion, inside the EU.

I share your scepticism regarding our parties and possible decisions they may make.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Actually, you have a point. I was too vague, there are moments in this thread and others where some positives or perceived positives are mentioned. I just do not necessarily agree with them.

I am speaking about the remain campaign. Along with the leave campaign, they have been so thoroughly negative.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

Thanks, and yes, it is depressingly negative. I think its because the Remain campaign is being led by the Tories, and they instinctively hate much of what the EU produces, because it is by and large centre-left. For me, that's great, but for a Tory, its hard to defend. So instead they revert to what they understand, and what they are comfortable campaigning on, i.e. that it is likely to be an economic disaster if we leave. Elections are won by the party that promises the best economy, so with Leave are promising the EU money will all be spent on public services instead, they're not taking a hit here despite the considered thinking of all these independent economists. No, the Tory leaders are running a fear-based campaign because its all they know what to do, its how they won the last general, and the one before that

On the other hand, Corbyn, McConnell, Watson and the rest on the Labour frontbench, plus the dregs of the Libdems that are left in parliament, have been absolutely pathetic. What an absolute gift to the Leavers, for the progressive left to be so neutered and silent during a referendum that seeks to defend so much of what they have worked for. These are the people that would be campaigning positively for the EU, and perhaps if we still had the hard-hitters of the Libdem and Labour frontbenchs of five to ten years ago, we wouldn't be getting ourselves into this mess.

Finally we have immigration, and the pressure on public services. Everyone pretty much agrees that this is an issue, and this is the core of the whole thing, this is why Leave will win if indeed it does. And the argument on this has been the most depressing of the lot. Remain don't acknowledge that we need immigration to fill the jobs that our growing economy is creating, instead they talk vaguely about working closely with our neighbours, restricting benefits, or promote the economic benefits of immigration, or they just ignore it altogether. Meanwhile Leave are being completely disingenuous by implying that we can roll back previous immigration and stop new immigration. The idea of 'controlling' immigration or using a 'points-based system' are nice soundbites, but when a load of new fruit-picking jobs come up, how many points will a bloke from Romania need to do it? There has been basically no debate on how we actually deal with the necessary improvements of our infrastructure or targeting funds where they are needed most. Both sides are just shying away from this debate, Remain because they don't want to get sucked into it, Leave because they know they are winning this argument by keeping people thinking all the Poles will go home. We have had much better, more honest immigration discussions on NSC.

 

[Hamilton]

It's the rich that want us in.......an endless supply of cheap labour courtesy of EU wide labour market.

As I said, pro EU Labour MPs in particular are only now seeing the light and calling for reform, in short admissions that they got it wrong.......again.

It's not the working class that is the problem........it's the liars that treated them with contempt for the last 20 years.

That's not strictly true is it. Many in the Remain camp have consistently said that the EU needs reform, but from within the EU. You can't affect change from the outside.

 

[Two Professors]

That's not strictly true is it. Many in the Remain camp have consistently said that the EU needs reform, but from within the EU. You can affect change from the outside.

They might have consistently said it,and done sod-all about it, for forty years.Nothing will ever change without an effort,and you certainly couldn't call Dodgy Dave's mumblings an effort!

 

[Two Professors]

And wandering back from the pub,what did I see-an advert that I hope is an omen:



Fortuitously released on the 24th

 

[BigGully]

With science being such an international industry though I'm not sure that's such a good thing. Firstly it relies on the UK government to match the funding we currently receive and I don't have confidence in any of our current political parties to make that investment.

Secondly, where funding comes from international bodies there is more drive to fund research on wider issues such as fighting climate change and antibiotic resistance. These things require joint effort between nations, in both scientific research and policy change. We are more likely to have this, in my opinion, inside the EU.

I actually dont interpret a likely self centred science initiative to play out that way.

I look at it currently as a less accountable body of money which inevitably will prompt wastage and a more laborious process of assessment of whether it is actually researching and developing relevant and important stuff.

It will take a genuine commitment and drive for any government to ensure investment but again its seems likely this would happen, I think we are world leaders when it comes to the global scientific community and I honestly think as with much of the doubts from the Remain camp this is something that will thrive rather than wither.

 

[Seagull27]

I actually dont interpret a likely self centred science initiative to play out that way.

I look at it currently as a less accountable body of money which inevitably will prompt wastage and a more laborious process of assessment of whether it is actually researching and developing relevant and important stuff.

It will take a genuine commitment and drive for any government to ensure investment but again its seems likely this would happen, I think we are world leaders when it comes to the global scientific community and I honestly think as with much of the doubts from the Remain camp this is something that will thrive rather than wither.

I guess it depends on how much of a risk you interpret brexit to be compared to the perceived benefits. We are currently one of the world leaders in science, and EU membership has played an important role in that, both in terms of funding and in personnel. Brexit would mean we would almost certainly suffer at least in the short term for the latter; in terms of funding, there is a POSSIBILITY we will recover to the levels we have now eventually. Personally, the possible benefits of Brexit aren't enough for me to take that risk.

Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk

 

[BigGully]

That's not strictly true is it. Many in the Remain camp have consistently said that the EU needs reform, but from within the EU. You can't affect change from the outside.

Why would you think that we can reform it now, after at the very least wavering in this referendum that now the Germans and the French will offer concessions that previously were unattainable, it nonsensical.

Change will occur if we leave, there will be contagion with a likely collapse of the political structures of the EU, if the euro doesnt kill it first.