Two weeks to go - how are you voting in the EU referendum? - Leave or Remain?

[Green Cross Code Man]

I'm not specifying. The argument was that we reduce immigration by leaving the EU, I argue that we won't because we need people to fill the jobs. Two million EU nationals currently work in the UK, so if they are all instantly denied the right of free movement and employment in the UK, that is a lot of jobs to fill. It is also a hell of a lot of work permit and visa applications to process, especially if we have a convoluted points-based approach. Obviously the simplest approach is not to deny these people the right to work here at all, and we have a vote on that in a week and a bit.

EU workers are guaranteed the right to remain in the UK if they are currently here. So that is that.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

 

[maltaseagull]

Remain.
Postal vote sent today

This (But posted ours on the 14th)

 

[heathgate]

The current poll positioning is interesting with a 17% lead for remain which is completely different to the national polls at the moment.

So how representative of the general population do you think NSC is?

The common link is obviously BHA and football but that aside I have the feeling that we have a very wide age range, a real mix of political loyalties and views and probably incomes too.

So would you put a bet on a remain win based on this poll?!

The recent polls was only for 2 days and didn't capture everyone.. the older one was more representative.

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[Kalimantan Gull]

EU workers are guaranteed the right to remain in the UK if they are currently here. So that is that.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

Quite. So Brexit are lieing by saying that leaving the EU will reduce all the pressure on our public services. Everything will be exactly the same as it is now

 

[Buzzer]

Quite. So Brexit are lieing by saying that leaving the EU will reduce all the pressure on our public services. Everything will be exactly the same as it is now

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Someone has already told you it's not about kicking people out but controlling future immigration. Even Ed Balls, who is in the Remain camp, agrees that the current rate of immigration is unsustainable.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Someone has already told you it's not about kicking people out but controlling future immigration. Even Ed Balls, who is in the Remain camp, agrees that the current rate of immigration is unsustainable.

No, because I spend half my time replying to people who want to vote leave in order to get rid of all the immigrants who are putting pressure on public services, only to get responses from other leavers like you who say all the immigrants will stay. It becomes a circular conversation with people who purport to be on the same side of the argument but yet have widely contradictory positions. What you never see is the Leavers who acknowledge everyone can stay arguing with the Leavers who want everyone to, well, leave.

To your second sentence, the rate of immigration isn't the point is it? EU migrants are coming for jobs. If our economy stays strong and we keep creating jobs, we're going to get more EU migrants (or, in a post-leave world, give out more work permits), and if our economy goes downhill the number of jobs will fall, resulting in a drop in migrant numbers (or, in a post-leave world, claim "Success! - we showed you we could control immigration!")

 

[drew]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Someone has already told you it's not about kicking people out but controlling future immigration. Even Ed Balls, who is in the Remain camp, agrees that the current rate of immigration is unsustainable.

What KG is saying is that if immigration stopped from today, the situation of the NHS will remain as it is todayl, ie struggling to cope. If immigration continued to rise then the situation would deteriorate and if the population was reduced (presuming this didn't reduce the number of NHS employees and finance) then the situation would probably improve.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

What KG is saying is that if immigration stopped from today, the situation of the NHS will remain as it is todayl, ie struggling to cope. If immigration continued to rise then the situation would deteriorate and if the population was reduced (presuming this didn't reduce the number of NHS employees and finance) then the situation would probably improve.

The NHS is screwed whatever happens, WHY can't people effing see this? It'll carrying on being cut whether we stay in or leave, STOP effing believing the powers the be ffs its depressing reading all this shite for weeks full of false hope

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[Wrong-Direction]

The NHS is screwed whatever happens, WHY can't people effing see this? It'll carrying on being cut whether we stay in or leave, STOP effing believing the powers the be ffs its depressing reading all this shite for weeks full of false hope

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This wasn't a dig at you btw

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[drew]

The NHS is screwed whatever happens, WHY can't people effing see this? It'll carrying on being cut whether we stay in or leave, STOP effing believing the powers the be ffs its depressing reading all this shite for weeks full of false hope

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You're probably right but it's not because of immigration, it's because there are thousands of staff doing a vocational job to the very best of their ability whilst being shat upon by their management and, from a greater height, by the government. BSUH is fine case in point.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

You're probably right but it's not because of immigration, it's because there are thousands of staff doing a vocational job to the very best of their ability whilst being shat upon by their management and, from a greater height, by the government. BSUH is fine case in point.

100% agree

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[drew]

This wasn't a dig at you btw

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I didn't think it was but nevertheless appreciate the clarification.

 

[drew]

I think I'm a desperate remailer. Although not sure.

So am I. Everything that comes through our letter box, I push back out again!

 

[drew]

Where in the spreadsheet does it say that it is controlled by the EU? Not even Farage believes the EU control what we do with the rebate!

You are correct, the rebate is a discount, "money off" the "full price". & technically the EU does not say "You must spend your rebate on XYZ". But, after recieving our "generous" discount - we, seperately, also get instructions (requirements) on how to spend an equivilant sum of money, and if we don't spend that money how we are told we will be fined.

They "give" with one hand, and take with the other.

The total controlled by the EU is 350M a week (see table 9.9 of the ONS Pink Book 2014). Just because it isn't all "sent" to the EU does not mean they don't control it. Focusing on what is actually "sent" is playing semantics.

Has anyone seen Dingo recently, still waiting for clarification of the above?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Quite. So Brexit are lieing by saying that leaving the EU will reduce all the pressure on our public services. Everything will be exactly the same as it is now

No, not really. I believe that the stance is that Britain would be free to make it's own law regarding immigration in the event of exit, but that reduction would not concern lessening current immigrants, but rather, restricting future immigration.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

No, not really. I believe that the stance is that Britain would be free to make it's own law regarding immigration in the event of exit, but that reduction would not concern lessening current immigrants, but rather, restricting future immigration.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

Which is dingenuous to people who think that by voting leave they will be relieving pressures on publicservices, having fewer eastern europeans around, and so on. At the very best it will stay the same as it is now - which is a situation most of the leavers appear to hate.

As for restricting future immigration, if, as brexit claims, our economy is strengthened when we're out of the EU, who is going to fill the new jobs created? The point still isn't answered.

 

[Bold Seagull]

No, not really. I believe that the stance is that Britain would be free to make it's own law regarding immigration in the event of exit, but that reduction would not concern lessening current immigrants, but rather, restricting future immigration.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

So, with immigration a hot topic, and perhaps has been for the last decade, why, when we have the freedom to set our own laws regarding immigration from outside the EU, has this not fallen or been controlled?

Could it be, that a growing economy, with a growing elderly population, needs a growing population? That is the brutal truth about immigration, the elephant in the room. Your economy grows the more people that are in it. This sudden magic stop button isn't going to happen. If it was, we would have the legislation right now reducing immigration from outside the EU - we don't. I don't see why this will suddenly change if we exit. It would kill the economy, that is why Labour didn't make it more difficult, and it is why the Tories in 6 years haven't either.

 

[Jim in the West]

So, with immigration a hot topic, and perhaps has been for the last decade, why, when we have the freedom to set our own laws regarding immigration from outside the EU, has this not fallen or been controlled?

Could it be, that a growing economy, with a growing elderly population, needs a growing population? That is the brutal truth about immigration, the elephant in the room. Your economy grows the more people that are in it. This sudden magic stop button isn't going to happen. If it was, we would have the legislation right now reducing immigration from outside the EU - we don't. I don't see why this will suddenly change if we exit. It would kill the economy, that is why Labour didn't make it more difficult, and it is why the Tories in 6 years haven't either.

Spot on. And it's why the Leave campaign won't say how much immigration they will allow post-Brexit. The plain fact is, there are hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of jobs that Brits just don't want to do. If we stop (or significantly reduce) immigration from the EU, there will be massive shortages of labour in the hospitality industry, agriculture, care of the elderly, health care....and so on. It baffles me that some sane individuals can't see the reality of the Brexit campaign for what it is - a vehicle for Boris to become PM, and Farage to stick his nose into everything.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

So, with immigration a hot topic, and perhaps has been for the last decade, why, when we have the freedom to set our own laws regarding immigration from outside the EU, has this not fallen or been controlled?

Could it be, that a growing economy, with a growing elderly population, needs a growing population? That is the brutal truth about immigration, the elephant in the room. Your economy grows the more people that are in it. This sudden magic stop button isn't going to happen. If it was, we would have the legislation right now reducing immigration from outside the EU - we don't. I don't see why this will suddenly change if we exit. It would kill the economy, that is why Labour didn't make it more difficult, and it is why the Tories in 6 years haven't either.

I agree with much of what you said. Unfortunately, the capitalist system we have, has an inherent flaw. It has to continue to grow to succeed. Too many people, too much greed juxtaposed with too little land and diminishing returns on limited resources.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Spot on. And it's why the Leave campaign won't say how much immigration they will allow post-Brexit. The plain fact is, there are hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of jobs that Brits just don't want to do. If we stop (or significantly reduce) immigration from the EU, there will be massive shortages of labour in the hospitality industry, agriculture, care of the elderly, health care....and so on. It baffles me that some sane individuals can't see the reality of the Brexit campaign for what it is - a vehicle for Boris to become PM, and Farage to stick his nose into everything.

Its the right wing wanting to set the agenda. Big companies - at least big companies with little social responsibility, which is probably most of them, want a large supply of cheap labour and they want low regulation. The latter - on environmental, health &safety and labour practices, they're not getting through the EU, but certainly will through a Johnson/Gove government. But they need to keep the large suply of cheap labour, preferably non-unionised, so immigration is never going to be restricted.