How much is the Referendum Campaign influencing you?

[GT49er]

Why have brexit found no-one of high quality to champion them? Why is Marie Le Pen and Donald Trump the only two international politicians supporting Brexit?

You have missed the point entirely .In 1975, the 'joiners' targeted hate figures; people that a large majority of the electorate would hate - Wedgwood Benn and Enoch Powell. Now it's Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.. No positives; just a hate campaign.
Fair enough - it worked back then. The sheep voted... ... ... ... ...

 

[GT49er]

Obviously remainers believe in the country as well. What I will say is that self-determination is only that if you are powerful enough to see your aims fulfilled. Yes we have to sacrifice total sovereignty, voluntarily and (however imperfectly) democratically, but in exchange for this our ability to drive pan-European and global change is enhanced. It is a trade-off but it actually makes us more sovereign because our world-view and policy is amplified at a European and global level, and our economy is stronger inside the EU. The bigger economy we are the bigger player we are. A weaker economy means less influence, which ultimately will see global governance carved up by the US, China and EU. This may not be in our interest, and we will have rules foisted upon us that we must abide but did not have a hand in shaping. For me this reduces our ability to determine our own future, and dilutes the country's sovereignty.

God save us ... ... ...

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Once again Question Time started resorting to cheap political scoring, but once the issue came up about the lack of housing the Remain panellists failed to see the connection of the number of people coming to this country V the numbers of houses we need to build just to keep up with it. They have no answer for it. Quite frankly people have had enough of the bullshit now.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Obviously remainers believe in the country as well. What I will say is that self-determination is only that if you are powerful enough to see your aims fulfilled. Yes we have to sacrifice total sovereignty, voluntarily and (however imperfectly) democratically, but in exchange for this our ability to drive pan-European and global change is enhanced. It is a trade-off but it actually makes us more sovereign because our world-view and policy is amplified at a European and global level, and our economy is stronger inside the EU. The bigger economy we are the bigger player we are. A weaker economy means less influence, which ultimately will see global governance carved up by the US, China and EU. This may not be in our interest, and we will have rules foisted upon us that we must abide but did not have a hand in shaping. For me this reduces our ability to determine our own future, and dilutes the country's sovereignty.

Depends upon the aims. Take Singapore for example. It is a small but independent country. It negotiates its own trade deals and defence pacts but has its own currency and determines its own laws. I am not saying we need to be like Singapore in other respects but it is an obvious example of a country, heavily reliant on services industries that thrives upon co-operating with neighbours while retaining its sovereignty. I am not sure that 'driving pan-European and global change' should be the aim for the UK. You also assume both that within the EU we have a bigger economy and even if so that that is a good thing. The projected size of the economy depends upon the assumptions you insert in the modelling. Even if you are right in your assumptions there is little indication that this bigger economy will benefit the populace anything like equally. Countries like the UK become bubble economies within the EU as they attract capital and labour at the expense of poorer regions. This bids up asset prices (housing) and depresses labour markets. The big winners are the rich (owners of capital eg houses and businesses) and inequality gets worse. The analogy within the UK is the London economy compared to the rest of the country where high housing costs and low wages make it extremely difficult for young people. This is the future for the whole country if we remain.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Why have brexit found no-one of high quality to champion them? Why is Marie Le Pen and Donald Trump the only two international politicians supporting Brexit?

How about Kate Hoey ? She has spoken a lot of sense on this subject although the media and Remainers seem more interested in Michael Gove and Boris. I would have liked to have seen Kate more prominent in the campaign.

 

[drew]

How about Kate Hoey ? She has spoken a lot of sense on this subject although the media and Remainers seem more interested in Michael Gove and Boris. I would have liked to have seen Kate more prominent in the campaign.

She's hardly a prominent international politician. For that matter, she is hardly a prominent politician in this country. You might like what she says but that doesn't make her prominent!!

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

She's hardly a prominent international politician. For that matter, she is hardly a prominent politician in this country. You might like what she says but that doesn't make her prominent!!

the question was asked as to why hadn't Brexit found any politicians of high quality. I think she is one. It was also mentioned that Brexit had no 'international politicians.' I don't know what an international politician is although the poster mentions Trump and Le Pen who I think may be very poor examples. I don't know why we have to discount the views of any politician who doesn't get rolling coverage on 24 hour news channels.

 

[portslade seagull]

She's hardly a prominent international politician. For that matter, she is hardly a prominent politician in this country. You might like what she says but that doesn't make her prominent!!

The prominent politicians from the EU supporting remain only do so in an attempt to look after their own interests worrying about the potential loss of income from our enforced payments into this corrupted system

 

[One Love]

Echoes of 1975 I'm afraid. Anthony Wedgwood Benn ("Do you want to support a left wing, Russia loving, pinko socialist communist red-under-the-bed") or Enoch Powell ("Fascist, right wing, racist") - if you support either of those, vote 'No' to joining the EEC then. "You wouldn't want to be associated with either of those?" the pro-EEC campaigners would say - then vote to join; that's how it was back then.
Now it's "Are you the sort of person that supports Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson" which is used by the remains to persuade the sheep to vote stay.

Oh, there are so many others that I would not follow, head of them all Michael Gove.

Following the likes of these over a cliff without any idea of the potential economic disaster that could befall us is irresponsible and careless.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Oh, there are so many others that I would not follow, head of them all Michael Gove.

Following the likes of these over a cliff without any idea of the potential economic disaster that could befall us is irresponsible and careless.

but if the unknown is your concern then why did we join the EU in the first place ? That was also a leap into an economic unknown (your definition) and I would presume that you agreed with that leap ?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Oh, there are so many others that I would not follow, head of them all Michael Gove.

Following the likes of these over a cliff without any idea of the potential economic disaster that could befall us is irresponsible and careless.

If people really want to reduce this to personalities I'm not sure following Dave, Gideon and the two Jeremy's (Corbyn/Hunt) is any better.

Even the treasury forecast which was laughably biased said we would still be better off (than now) post Brexit and the economy would continue to grow at a substantial rate. Not so much going off a cliff more a pleasant stroll on the South Downs.

 

[GT49er]

Oh, there are so many others that I would not follow, head of them all Michael Gove.

Following the likes of these over a cliff without any idea of the potential economic disaster that could befall us is irresponsible and careless.

So you'd follow Cameron and Osborne over a cliff quite happily then? This is about issues, not personalities. The remain camp is, of course, demonising its opponents to try and persuade people (like you) to vote remain, the same as the 'join' campaign did in 1975.

 

[One Love]

but if the unknown is your concern then why did we join the EU in the first place ? That was also a leap into an economic unknown (your definition) and I would presume that you agreed with that leap ?

You can't possibly compare the two. We joined and expanded our horizons, we leave we cut ourselves adrift.

 

[One Love]

If people really want to reduce this to personalities I'm not sure following Dave, Gideon and the two Jeremy's (Corbyn/Hunt) is any better.

Even the treasury forecast which was laughably biased said we would still be better off (than now) post Brexit and the economy would continue to grow at a substantial rate. Not so much going off a cliff more a pleasant stroll on the South Downs.

You cannot possibly be confident that if we leave everything is going to be fine. There is no precedent.

 

[One Love]

So you'd follow Cameron and Osborne over a cliff quite happily then? This is about issues, not personalities. The remain camp is, of course, demonising its opponents to try and persuade people (like you) to vote remain, the same as the 'join' campaign did in 1975.

Hang on. The remain camp don't have to demonise that shower. You just have to mention their names, no demonising required.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I've found tit bits from ordinary people the most influencing. Not often, but in one or two interviews, written or otherwise, there have been little gems that I've thought that is spot on, or how ridiculous to think like that. Politicians, pah, who on earth is being influenced by them?

 

[drew]

If people really want to reduce this to personalities I'm not sure following Dave, Gideon and the two Jeremy's (Corbyn/Hunt) is any better.

Even the treasury forecast which was laughably biased said we would still be better off (than now) post Brexit and the economy would continue to grow at a substantial rate. Not so much going off a cliff more a pleasant stroll on the South Downs.

That's a bit like being a mountaineer and setting your target in life to reach the summit of Ditching Beacon rather than Everest, K2, Mont Blanc or even just Scafell Pike!!!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You cannot possibly be confident that if we leave everything is going to be fine. There is no precedent.

Depends what you mean by fine. I am certain everything won't be fine if we stay in.

Completely agree there is no precedent which makes all the definitive forecasts pro or anti Brexit pure guesswork.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

That's a bit like being a mountaineer and setting your target in life to reach the summit of Ditching Beacon rather than Everest, K2, Mont Blanc or even just Scafell Pike!!!

More like a mountaineer deciding being free to choose which summit to climb anywhere in the world is a more rewarding target/challenge than being led up and down the same old European peaks every year.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Have the campaigners impressed you? Have you changed your mind about how you will vote?

NO and NO