[Politics] Brexit

[Trufflehound]

why is NATO NOT mentioned in your snappy poster quote?



there must be a good reason surely

NATO's job was/is to protect Western Europe from the Soviet threat.

The EU's job was/is to stop Western Europe (primarily France and Germany) fighting itself.

Both vital and effective. But not the same role at all.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But that is untrue. Us 'exported old people' transfer from the NHS legally and into [my case] the Spanish Health care system. I won't bother you with the efficiency of it but just to tell you that they invoice the DHSS each time it's used. The net cost to the Spanish Gvnt. is zero.

This hasn't been the case for a few years now http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...246/NHS-axes-free-health-care-for-expats.html

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-spain

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'm not disagreeing, just saying these arguments have been made before, many times, and been debated endlessly. I'd like to hear something new.

OK, here's something new. The UK has some the tightest regulations on animal welfare in the world - particularly around food production. To the point that it's looking increasingly likely that even chicken and eggs produced from 'barn' kept poultry might be banned in the next decade - i.e. all chicken meat will come from free range. As part of the EU we will automatically become signed up to TTIP. One of the American's 'red lines' is that they want to be able to sell the EU their animal products but in many cases to do that they will need to either improve their animal welfare or the EU / the UK lowers theirs. Have a guess which way that is going ? Are you happy that those regulations will allow the return of chickens kept in cages just slightly big than a show box for the whole of their short lives for British supermarkets to sell ? That's what will happen if we sign up to TTIP by being members of the EU.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

What if I told you that unemployment is at record lows, immigrants subside services in this country and the EU has actually eased the burden on the NHS because 1. we export old people which cost the French and Spanish govt a lot of free health care - far more than EU citizens cost our NHS 2. we import young nurses and doctors to staff our hospitals

Then I'd say you don't understand the French health system. British passport holders are required to pay for a lot of health services in France and then claim it back themselves from the NHS. Many French have health insurance to top up the so called 'free' services.

 

[yxee]

NATO's job was/is to protect Western Europe from the Soviet threat.

The EU's job was/is to stop Western Europe (primarily France and Germany) fighting itself.

What about Germany and Greece?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

OK, here's something new. The UK has some the tightest regulations on animal welfare in the world - particularly around food production. To the point that it's looking increasingly likely that even chicken and eggs produced from 'barn' kept poultry might be banned in the next decade - i.e. all chicken meat will come from free range. As part of the EU we will automatically become signed up to TTIP. One of the American's 'red lines' is that they want to be able to sell the EU their animal products but in many cases to do that they will need to either improve their animal welfare or the EU / the UK lowers theirs. Have a guess which way that is going ? Are you happy that those regulations will allow the return of chickens kept in cages just slightly big than a show box for the whole of their short lives for British supermarkets to sell ? That's what will happen if we sign up to TTIP by being members of the EU.

Is this the same trade deal which has just collapsed yet again due to differences in standards? The main barriers to trade between the US and the EU are not traditional tariff barriers but the differing regulatory regimes that operate on either side of the Atlantic. America and Europe have different views on everything from GM food to safety standards on cars. I therefore find it very very hard to believe your somewhat extreme version of events will unfold. Protect fear alive and well in the Brexit camp?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Then I'd say you don't understand the French health system. British passport holders are required to pay for a lot of health services in France and then claim it back themselves from the NHS. Many French have health insurance to top up the so called 'free' services.

And I'd say your a few years out of date with your thinking. You will not get this any more. See my post #2363.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Fair enough, I may have been suffering from end-of-season tension when I had a pop at that retired military man. But I did add this... "It's fine with me if he wants to go round telling the world that he's talking to dead Major Generals but, all things being equal, it doesn't make me feel that his views should outweigh those of more sober and numerous specialists." That point still stands - the Brexit supporters on here seem to regard any Breibart-quoted individual having a go at the EU as the holy grail while dismissing out of hand any words of warning from a hugely-experienced authority like Mark Carney, who is bound by statute to state the views of his committee. One poster claims that he has exceeded his remit (he hasn't) while you are happy with the notion that he simply represents vested interests and knows nothing.

I am happy pointing out that Carney was Osborne's choice for Governor so may have a vested interest in dancing to the Chancellors tune. I also note he and Christine Lagarde (another person Osborne supported) both piped up with further dire warnings at the same time the ONS revealed the real immigration stats. Expect they will do the same at appropriate times in the coming weeks.

I see the hugely-experienced Mervyn King, Bank of England Governor for 10 years has called for all sides to stop scaremongering and would consider voting for Brexit.

 

[CheeseRolls]

You would expect Labour to reduce workers' rights?

Let me explain this SLOWLY just for you....

Pastafarian was questioning why labour stay in campaigners thought that this was better for workers rights, when nobody on the Brexit side has said that they would reduce workers rights.

One of the key anti-EC messages has always been about the quantity of red tape and bureaucracy. It is not a major leap to conclude that this would mean an erosion in workers rights.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

And I'd say your a few years out of date with your thinking. You will not get this any more. See my post #2363.

That's exactly how it worked for my parents last year when my mother needed treatment.

 

[cunning fergus]

We have heard this argument a 101 times. Can you come up with something different?

OK, how about this......

Did you know that Hungary was due to hold a referendum on the power of the EU to impose quotas for refugees on the basis that by doing so it would diminish the sovereignty of the Hungarian Parliament? I thought it was a threat, however it looks like it will happen, possibly in Poland and Slovakia too.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/06d7c59e-dafb-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09.html

I listened to this week's political podcast on my way up to Sheffield there is some other interesting stuff too, looks like the EU deal with Turkey a) is not working and b) Turkey is going to call the EU's bluff on the visa scheme too.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...nd-the-european-union-politics-weekly-podcast

What an undemocratic mess.......all due to the institutional mess that enables an unelected institution to override the wishes of a sovereign parliament.

Resolving the euro will generate the similar political fissures........its unsustainable, even if Brexit isn't the straw that breaks the camels back it will be another wound for the EU, and its demise will be the consequence of a accumulation of such wounds.

 

[CheeseRolls]

OK, here's something new. The UK has some the tightest regulations on animal welfare in the world - particularly around food production. To the point that it's looking increasingly likely that even chicken and eggs produced from 'barn' kept poultry might be banned in the next decade - i.e. all chicken meat will come from free range. As part of the EU we will automatically become signed up to TTIP. One of the American's 'red lines' is that they want to be able to sell the EU their animal products but in many cases to do that they will need to either improve their animal welfare or the EU / the UK lowers theirs. Have a guess which way that is going ? Are you happy that those regulations will allow the return of chickens kept in cages just slightly big than a show box for the whole of their short lives for British supermarkets to sell ? That's what will happen if we sign up to TTIP by being members of the EU.

All very well, but when we have leading Brexit campaigners (BJ and Govey) claiming that an out vote will result in lower food prices, this is clearly not going to come from higher welfare standards.

 

[CheeseRolls]

OK, how about this......

Did you know that Hungary was due to hold a referendum on the power of the EU to impose quotas for refugees on the basis that by doing so it would diminish the sovereignty of the Hungarian Parliament? I thought it was a threat, however it looks like it will happen, possibly in Poland and Slovakia too.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/06d7c59e-dafb-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09.html

I listened to this week's political podcast on my way up to Sheffield there is some other interesting stuff too, looks like the EU deal with Turkey a) is not working and b) Turkey is going to call the EU's bluff on the visa scheme too.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...nd-the-european-union-politics-weekly-podcast

What an undemocratic mess.......all due to the institutional mess that enables an unelected institution to override the wishes of a sovereign parliament.

Resolving the euro will generate the similar political fissures........its unsustainable, even if Brexit isn't the straw that breaks the camels back it will be another wound for the EU, and its demise will be the consequence of a accumulation of such wounds.

All very interesting, but how does the Schengen zone negotiations with Turkey impact the UK's soveriegnty andhow does parliamentary debate in Hungary, Poland and Slovakia support your argument that Europe is anti-democratic ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

All very well, but when we have leading Brexit campaigners (BJ and Govey) claiming that an out vote will result in lower food prices, this is clearly not going to come from higher welfare standards.

Strangely I can't find any quotes from the two individuals saying that. What I can find is Remainers claiming food prices will increase :

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/25164a48-fb3b-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b.html#axzz48cfA4Uyj

And yet this article suggests otherwise :

http://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Business-News/UK-vote-to-leave-EU-would-not-hit-food-prices

Care to provide links to the BJ and Gove quotes ?

 

[Boroseagull]

This hasn't been the case for a few years now http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...246/NHS-axes-free-health-care-for-expats.html

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-spain

Read the Telegraph report again... quote.....'It means that the NHS will no longer reimburse another European state for health costs incurred by non-working Britons under pensionable age'.........The OP and myself were talking about pensioners or in his words 'exported old people', not those under 65's who were dodging the system or working on the QT.

 

[5ways]

sigh

its very simple,i thought you might have understood, i cant get more simpler than this

why is NATO NOT mentioned in your snappy poster quote?

View attachment 74698

there must be a good reason surely

Are you for real?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That's exactly how it worked for my parents last year when my mother needed treatment.

If they were not officially resident, or were continuously resident prior to 2014, then yes you are correct. Otherwise it has changed.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Read the Telegraph report again... quote.....'It means that the NHS will no longer reimburse another European state for health costs incurred by non-working Britons under pensionable age'.........The OP and myself were talking about pensioners or in his words 'exported old people', not those under 65's who were dodging the system or working on the QT.

But for pensioners I think the NHS just makes a fixed contribution per person?

 

[GT49er]

Let me explain this SLOWLY just for you....

Pastafarian was questioning why labour stay in campaigners thought that this was better for workers rights, when nobody on the Brexit side has said that they would reduce workers rights.

One of the key anti-EC messages has always been about the quantity of red tape and bureaucracy. It is not a major leap to conclude that this would mean an erosion in workers rights.

Frankly I'd rather you explained it PATRONISINGLY.

 

[cunning fergus]

All very interesting, but how does the Schengen zone negotiations with Turkey impact the UK's soveriegnty andhow does parliamentary debate in Hungary, Poland and Slovakia support your argument that Europe is anti-democratic ?

Who is negotiating with Turkey, and what is their democratic mandate to the PEOPLE of the EU, or let me put it another way, which national governing parties and/or heads of state are actively supporting visa free travel with Turkey and the imposition of quotas to settle millions of refugees in their country?

The very fact that Hungary is planning to have a referendum on the quotas point will mean the EU will be faced with a clear democratic mandate by the Hungarian people that the EU cannot impose quotas, and this may well be the shape of things to come with national states deal with other contentious issues that EU has to deal with.

The sharing of fiscal sovereignty by the EZ is a case in point, and if you think that this will happen with the consent of all the electorate's in the EZ states, including Germany for that matter you have your head firmly in the sand.

The EU in its current guise is a busted flush, it will die the death of a thousand cuts........no pun intended.